(February 9, 2016 at 11:55 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(February 9, 2016 at 11:47 am)athrock Wrote: Yes, because apart from an objective standard, there is no basis for saying that anything is "right" or "wrong". It's just your opinion v. my opinion.

And I have NOT said you don't have a moral compass because:

A. It is possible for non-believers to ACT in a moral fashion, and 
B. This ability is the direct result of God's placement of a moral compass (Natural Law) within us.

Paul wrote:

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

We observe the universe and see God's handiwork in the ordering of the stars and the seasons and the plants and animals.

We observe human behavior and see right and wrong from universally accepted objective moral values.

No sorry, quoting a holy book is what every religion does.

Of course. Like scientists are still relying on some of the laws of physics and mathematics and chemistry that were laid down long ago. Duh.

Quote:And no, morals are NOT universal in the context of human invented religion. 

Our species ability to be cruel or compassionate is in our evolution, not old comic books. Not the bible, not the Quran not the Vedas, none of them.

That was then this is now. It was understandable back the that people wrote those things and others bought those things. We have a much better scientific understanding of evolution and the universe now.

Okay, so Stalin evolved to kill millions of his own people without giving it a second thought. That was just "survival of the fittest".

(February 9, 2016 at 1:47 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(February 9, 2016 at 11:37 am)Esquilax Wrote: Athrock asked this question of LadyforCamus, but I'd like to answer it too, because I think it'd be informative and might explain why I was so short with CL too, which I kinda hate to do for otherwise extremely nice people.

I'm a young person. I turn 25 this weekend, so I wasn't around for a lot of the really awful stuff, but I'm still a part of the LGBTQ community, and I've seen, and listened, and heard what others within it have to say. The gay/straight alliance at my university lost a member to suicide while I was there. Good friends shared their stories of dealing with bigotry, and the bruises (sometimes literal, other times not) that it left behind. Old girlfriends and boyfriends tell me of the adverse reactions of family, the hostility and dismissiveness that came simply from them living their own authentic lives. I've seen the suffering that comes of religious bigotry, not just in the suicides and deaths and beatings, but in the dislocation of families, the divisions between friends, the small, alienating moments that all add up into one big communal voice saying "you do not belong."

So when I see an otherwise lovely person like CL call her beliefs "just her opinion," or a gay christian shrugging their shoulders and saying that the church is just fine because their congregation is accepting of them, I just want to shake them. Not just because of the very real misery they're discounting out of hand with their nonchalance, but because they're apparently unaware of the valuable role they play in perpetuating the same bigotry they claim doesn't exist in their religion.

CL, you are the shield that the real bigots hide behind to escape negative responses to their actions. You are the "good christian majority" of kind, normal, compassionate human beings that mask the vitriol and hate of those causing real suffering, the crowd of good people that they retreat to after punching us in the gut, feigning the same smile that you genuinely wear. You are the empty cup in the shell game we in the LGBTQ community have to play with the religious, the one they look under when they force us to undergo their little "find the bigotry" test, whereupon they'll say "whoops, there's no bigotry under this cup! Sorry friend, maybe it just plum doesn't exist?"

You are what real bigots point to, from atop mountains of bodies and oceans of tears, from the wreckage of broken families and depressed young people and every gay couple struggling for acceptance, you are always there for them to point to and ask us: "what do you mean, the church's stance on homosexuality is harmful? Look at her! She wouldn't hurt a fly, and she's catholic!"

That's why I'm angry. You and all the good people like you are unwitting pawns in a manipulative game played by those in power within your religion, and every time you choose to say the words that make their case, or remain blind to the destruction both large and small being done in your name, the implication is that your church's beliefs are more important than the lives and well being of those being ground down on its behalf.

You're being used, and you choose not to see it.

That was a beautiful response, Esquilax.  I'm glad you shouldered the burden of answering that question before I got to it.  'Blind' is a good way to describe what you are talking about, especially in the OP's case.  It's like having a verbally abusive parent who tells you: 'you are a weird little misfit so you can't expect to have the same rights as other normal people, but don't worry, we will still love you as long as you understand that your place is over there on the outside.'  

The Church might as well be calling him Quasimodo, and making him live in the bell tower, but instead of being infuriated and indignant, the OP is grateful to this church for accepting him despite his "damaged" condition.  This was somebody's self-worth, slowly and purposefully chipped away over many years, and he can't even see it.  Blind is right.  

BINGO, and even with the left who truly believes they are helping, this is no kind of help. It is still telling someone they are broken and doing so based on an old comic book having nothing to do with our modern understanding of evolution. I wish there was a polite way to say it, but there simply is not.

(February 9, 2016 at 12:30 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(February 9, 2016 at 11:51 am)athrock Wrote: I don't think you know Jesus Christ or His Catholic Church at all. 

And you choose not to see.

So, I know it's a really easy response that doesn't require you to think critically or engage with the things I've said before, but "you don't know what you're talking about" is not a refutation. It's a fiat dismissal based on nothing but your unwillingness to consider what's being said.

You can go that way if you want, but I'm not required to treat your sneering condescension as anything other than what it is: a full fledged retreat from the argument.

As you know, I've spent a LOT of time responding to your posts. (You're the 25-year-old with the bachelor's degree in philosophy who works full time as a social worker who thinks he can take down William Lane Craig who has TWO PhD's in philosophy and spends all HIS time studying the philosophical arguments for God and other apologetics subjects.)

However, maybe I'm wrong.

I will watch your posts for some evidence that you know Jesus and Catholicism well (or at all).

(February 9, 2016 at 1:51 pm)athrock Wrote:

(February 9, 2016 at 11:55 am)Brian37 Wrote: No sorry, quoting a holy book is what every religion does.

Of course. Like scientists are still relying on some of the laws of physics and mathematics and chemistry that were laid down long ago. Duh.

Quote:And no, morals are NOT universal in the context of human invented religion. 

Our species ability to be cruel or compassionate is in our evolution, not old comic books. Not the bible, not the Quran not the Vedas, none of them.

That was then this is now. It was understandable back the that people wrote those things and others bought those things. We have a much better scientific understanding of evolution and the universe now.

Okay, so Stalin evolved to kill millions of his own people without giving it a second thought. That was just "survival of the fittest".

We already did this ad nauseam over in the "pop-morality" thread. Your book is full of atrocities against humanity sanctioned by your God, and no, crying "free will" doesn't cut it. I'll wipe my ass with your hateful book, how is that for moral?

(February 9, 2016 at 1:53 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(February 9, 2016 at 1:47 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: That was a beautiful response, Esquilax.  I'm glad you shouldered the burden of answering that question before I got to it.  'Blind' is a good way to describe what you are talking about, especially in the OP's case.  It's like having a verbally abusive parent who tells you: 'you are a weird little misfit so you can't expect to have the same rights as other normal people, but don't worry, we will still love you as long as you understand that your place is over there on the outside.'  

The Church might as well be calling him Quasimodo, and making him live in the bell tower, but instead of being infuriated and indignant, the OP is grateful to this church for accepting him despite his "damaged" condition.  This was somebody's self-worth, slowly and purposefully chipped away over many years, and he can't even see it.  Blind is right.  

BINGO, and even with the left who truly believes they are helping, this is no kind of help. It is still telling someone they are broken and doing so based on an old comic book having nothing to do with our modern understanding of evolution. I wish there was a polite way to say it, but there simply is not.

Eh, being polite is overrated. [emoji6]

(February 9, 2016 at 12:43 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:

athrock Wrote:Howerver, as has been pointed out in this forum previously (meaning you already know this), the Catholic Church has a lower rate of pedophilia than other institutions (like the public school system, the Boy Scouts, swim teams, etc.) AND these other institutions have ALSO moved people around and tried to hide the problems.

Source? Other institutions have similar problems, but I'm interested in knowing what study determined that the rate is lower in the RCC.

And those other institutions don't claim to represent God on Earth.

Google it. 

In addition to child molestation issues, the Protestant clergy also has problems with divorce and adultery that the Catholic priesthood does not have for obvious reasons.

And no, those groups don't represent God on earth, but the Church doesn't claim to BE God on Earth...just to be the people of God on earth. The people - all of them combined - are the Church, and we've never claimed to be perfect.

(February 9, 2016 at 1:57 pm)athrock Wrote:

(February 9, 2016 at 12:30 pm)Esquilax Wrote: So, I know it's a really easy response that doesn't require you to think critically or engage with the things I've said before, but "you don't know what you're talking about" is not a refutation. It's a fiat dismissal based on nothing but your unwillingness to consider what's being said.

You can go that way if you want, but I'm not required to treat your sneering condescension as anything other than what it is: a full fledged retreat from the argument.

As you know, I've spent a LOT of time responding to your posts. (You're the 25-year-old with the bachelor's degree in philosophy who works full time as a social worker who thinks he can take down William Lane Craig who has TWO PhD's in philosophy and spends all HIS time studying the philosophical arguments for God and other apologetics subjects.)

However, maybe I'm wrong.

I will watch your posts for some evidence that you know Jesus and Catholicism well (or at all).

How the hell does having degrees in philosophy (or theology for that matter) make a person an expert in the supernatural? I got MY PhD from ghost buster's academy, so don't talk to ME about ghosts! I ain't scared of no ghosts....

Esquilax is exercising her ability to critically think and use common sense. No advanced degrees necessary.

(February 9, 2016 at 1:51 pm)athrock Wrote:

(February 9, 2016 at 11:55 am)Brian37 Wrote: No sorry, quoting a holy book is what every religion does.

Of course. Like scientists are still relying on some of the laws of physics and mathematics and chemistry that were laid down long ago. Duh.

Quote:And no, morals are NOT universal in the context of human invented religion. 

Our species ability to be cruel or compassionate is in our evolution, not old comic books. Not the bible, not the Quran not the Vedas, none of them.

That was then this is now. It was understandable back the that people wrote those things and others bought those things. We have a much better scientific understanding of evolution and the universe now.

Okay, so Stalin evolved to kill millions of his own people without giving it a second thought. That was just "survival of the fittest".

Knock it off, "atheist" does not equal dictator. GROW UP.

I am sorry it bothers you that we don't need your bronze age comic book and it's claim of a fictional sky hero. That is your baggage, not ours. 

AND NO, evolution is not "survival of the fittest". It is "ability to adapt". Health and brawn are only ONE aspect of evolution, but not the most important. 

Saying that our ability to be cruel or compassion is based in evolution is not advocating mass genocide jackass.

And you have some nerve trying to equate atheists to Stalin considering the infanticide and genocide stories in your bronze age comic book. FYI Russian Orthodox Christianity never left Russia, even under Stalin. Stalin was not anti-religion, he was anti-competition to the state. Putin quotes the Christian god all the time, and he most certainly is a dictator. Putin wants to take Russia back to the cold war status.

"atheist" is not a moral code either, it will not automatically make someone a genocidal dictator. 

Any thing humans do that is bad is because of evolution, anything humans do that is good is also based on evolution. No atheist I would call sane that is westernized values dictators. Repeat that garbage again, and I wont be so nice with my words.

(February 9, 2016 at 12:45 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(February 9, 2016 at 12:41 pm)athrock Wrote: No one in the Catholic Church is forcing ANYONE to be celibate. What the Church IS doing is trying to help those who are homosexual find a path toward God that will result in eternal life.

I'm not going to play games with you. "Be celibate or your sinful lifestyle will put you in hell," which is what you explicitly acknowledge in your second sentence to be the case, is forcing celibacy on people based on a threat.

Regardless, I love how you, true to the dodgeball tactics of christians everywhere looking to avoid accountability, took one sentence out of my long response to reply to and ignored everything else. You're not going to be able to distract from the bulk of my criticisms by faux-answering one of them.

It was the only sentence I thought needed a response.

There are lots of lifestyles that could put one in hell forever. The LGBTQ lifestyle is just one of them.

Now you know.

(February 9, 2016 at 12:50 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:

athrock Wrote:I'm just trying to fit in.

Just be yourself. I bet no one will be able to tell the difference.

(February 9, 2016 at 12:55 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(February 9, 2016 at 12:50 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Just be yourself. I bet no one will be able to tell the difference.

I think that was a slur that atheists are rude and impolite, but I could be mistaken.

Joemungadr wins a cookie.