(March 3, 2011 at 9:36 pm)Aerzia Saerules Arktuos Wrote:

(March 3, 2011 at 8:01 pm)ozgoat Wrote: But let's say you have a choice between strawberry jelly or raspberry jelly and you don't like strawberry, then you'd want to know, or perhaps you don't like jelly at all and would take it out before eating the doughnut!

You're reading too much into a silly example, you are

This I KNOW, of course!

(March 3, 2011 at 5:00 pm)Rayaan Wrote: You would be correct if you said "I don't beleive God exists" or "There is very little chance that He exists" but it's incorrect to say that you "know" that there is no God.

Why is that incorrect? I claim to know because I claim to be aware of the absence of God rather than his omnipresence, because I believe that I am almost certainly correct about the surroundings I believe in being his absence rather than his omnipresence. That's why I claim it.

Quote: For example, I'm not aware of the existence of aliens, but, I will not say that "I know that there are no aliens out there" because I know that there might be aliens even though I'm not aware of them.

If you truly know that there might be aliens out there, you must truly be aware that there might be aliens out there.

What epistemology are you using?

"Almost certain" IS NOT knowledge, btw. You cannot truly know that there might be something, it is self refuting.

My own subjective certainty - my confidence - is different to the absolute question of whether I really am right or not.

So you don't 'know' then Ev you're only certain. Pretty much like faith then

(March 4, 2011 at 8:38 am)theVOID Wrote: What epistemology are you using?

"Almost certain" IS NOT knowledge, btw. You cannot truly know that there might be something, it is self refuting.

I find that interesting, and I have had a discussion like this with believers. The argument goes.

Me - "does a goddess exist?"
fundy - "No, there is only god."
Me - "So you know for a fact that a goddess doesnt exist?"
fundy - "absolutely, there is only god."

How is it not okay for me to say that god doesnt exist, but it is okay for Christians and such to say they know for a fact that a goddess doesnt exist? Same with them denying that a multitude of gods exist. They flat out claim they know that only one god exists.

Me - "can your god do anything?"
fundy - "absolutely."
Me - "can your god be a goddess?"
fundy - "The bible refers to god as a "he" not a "she"
Me - "So your god isnt all powerful?"
fundy - "my god is all powerful"

Needless to say, trivial arguments like this led to my becoming an absurdist.

Atheist..agnostic..absurdist..it really doesnt matter much to me which one you want to call me.. I dont mind either one or all.

So DvF, where do you claim to derive your sense of confidence from? As I pointed out before, to claim that you are aware of the abscence of any gods is to claim you have some awareness outside yourself, as in an awareness that allows you to see the world from outside your limited human perspective. You would have to see the world, the universe itself in fact, from a perspective which allows you to observe the natural order of things and which, presuming there are no gods, reveals to you by its nature that it worked in a way that lacks gods.

As it stands, you cannot possibly do this. You are one limited human being with one limited human perspective. To claim you are aware of the non-existence of gods is to claim otherwise. It's like looking at one piece of the puzzle and claiming to 'know' what the entire puzzle is going to look liek and how it is to be constructed, from start to finish. It simply isn't possible without a leap of faith. You're presuming something on faith and I don't consider that a bad thing, obviously. Persue this line of though further because these are some interesting trains of thought.

This is why the attribution of agnosticism to any belief system is a noble sort of thing to attach to, irregardless faith or lack thereof .

(March 4, 2011 at 8:40 am)DoubtVsFaith Wrote: My own subjective certainty - my confidence - is different to the absolute question of whether I really am right or not.

That is no better than a theists own subjective certainty that god exists. Your confidence that you are correct is not KNOWLEDGE, so you DO NOT know that God does not exist, you merely strongly believe so.

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(March 4, 2011 at 9:46 am)reverendjeremiah Wrote: How is it not okay for me to say that god doesnt exist, but it is okay for Christians and such to say they know for a fact that a goddess doesnt exist? Same with them denying that a multitude of gods exist. They flat out claim they know that only one god exists.

Just because they are being illogical and wrong does not mean you should be too.

Quote:Needless to say, trivial arguments like this led to my becoming an absurdist.

Atheist..agnostic..absurdist..it really doesnt matter much to me which one you want to call me.. I dont mind either one or all.

"Agnostic Atheist"... Belief is binary so agnosticism on it's own is invalid.

You don't need to be an absurdist because someone else is being absurd...

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@ Watson: Brilliantly said.

"I believe in an all powerful god who is everywhere and invisible at the same time. He knows what I am thinking and everything that I will ever do. He is a righteous judge. Try to prove he doesnt exist!"

-VS-

"I believe in a very beautiful hooker. She is invisible and sitting on my lap right now. She knows everything I like and she gives great head. Try to prove she doesnt exist!"

Now that's something worth believing in, Rev.