(March 11, 2016 at 4:16 pm)robvalue Wrote: False analogy though, my parents are extremely limited in power.

The analogy had nothing to do with power, it's about letting a person suffer so they learn. There were times when your parents did this even when it was completely in their power to stop you from making a mistake. That doesn't make them "cunts", it makes them good parents.

Quote:If suffering is necessary for happiness, that is a rule God created. He needn't have. If that's a rule he must abide by, he's not omni wotsit.

Happiness and suffering are intrinsically linked. That is to say, you cannot be 100% happy if you have any % of suffering, and likewise, if you have 100% suffering you cannot be any % happy. Or to put it another way, "happiness is the absence of suffering". One could argue that happiness and suffering are not two distinct things, but either end of an emotional spectrum.

Also, it's fallacious to say that any rule God creates for humans, he must also abide by. I don't see the logic in that argument.

Quote:False dichotomy. You can have free will with just non-suffering choices. If you can't, he's not omni-pumped up.

I disagree, at least to the extent that the difference in suffering is non-measurable. Given a number of choices, one will always result in some degree more suffering than the other(s), although I would say that it's not always obvious immediately (or indeed, may not be obvious for a long time) which one that is.

Again, this has nothing to do with God's free will or omnipotence, etc. This is an argument about the free will of humans. Humans inhabit a world which contains suffering; God does not inhabit this world; he exists in a place that is maximally happy.

(March 11, 2016 at 3:32 pm)robvalue Wrote: Is Tibs screwing with me? Is this a test?

Hmm...

This God he describes is feeble indeed and nothing like the ones theists generally present. If he was this crap (God) I'd have no problem admitting he is hugely limited and maybe can only manage this bollock of a universe.

Silly.  Tibs is god.  This is all a test.  Bwahahahah!

(March 11, 2016 at 3:44 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(March 11, 2016 at 3:31 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Tibs, just wanted to let you know you're explaining everything really well. Mister Agenda was right on too when he was playing "devil's advocate."

I wish I could put what was on my mind into words like that.

You know when Moses was first commissioned as a Prophet/Messenger, the first thing he remembered was his brother. His brother Aeron was great at explaining things. I'm not sure if he was a Prophet according to Christians, but I think it is well known he was better at explaining things eloquently and clearly to people. Moses was really good as well, but the first thing Moses thought was, I know all these things in my heart, but I don't know how to explain them as well as my brother, so make my brother a vizier with me, that will share in my affair.

The thing is Aeron would understand everything Moses teaches to him and then be the door to that knowledge. Ali was similar in this regard to Mohammad per sayings of the Prophet as well as hinted in Quran.

Some people are better at explaining then others. This is why the Priesthood was given to Aeron and his chosen offspring I think according to the bible.

Moses can explain the truths really well, it's just he needs a good listener like Aeron. Aeron on the other hand knows how to knock sense even in people who don't try to listen.

That said, why does Moses need Aeron if God reveals words through him? It's because God is even more subtle in his speech, because, God cares more to teach good listeners and rewards them for listening, then stubborn hearts.

There is also a beauty in all that, in the literature, that makes you reflect. His words are about manifesting a personality that is exalted and high, and tries his servants with his words, to see if her lovers can see her beauty and be in reverence of her majesty.

I understood every word.  Keep that up.

I'm off to bed now, so I'm announcing myself the winner. God is dead, and also he's not very good.

See you guys in the objective morning!

(March 11, 2016 at 3:51 pm)Tiberius Wrote:

(March 11, 2016 at 3:43 pm)robvalue Wrote: Is this guy meant to only have our happiness as his concern and avoid us ever suffering?

If no, job done. He's a cunt.

So, your parents are "cunts" then? I guarantee you that at some point in your development, your parents let you suffer because ultimately it taught you a lesson, if only to let you know that suffering existed and was an actual thing you'd have to deal with.

If you eradicate suffering, then happiness becomes meaningless, because you have nothing to compare it to.

You really are doing good with the way you layer on the shit, but Rob's parents didn't invent evil, therefore evil is not what they are culpable for when others do it. Since it exists anyway, all good parents must teach their children about avoiding it. While Xtians deny that their god is responsible for inventing evil, DAFUQ - He's everything, and you cannot deny that if you believe he made everything! He is all of this universe's material (where the fuck else did it come from), he invented life, animal decision-making, and the human brain, and all the chemical switches which allow the choice between sociable and anti-social behaviors. With a word he breathed out life, and then he farted and out came demons and evil. What is criminal in humanity isn't wrong with other species if it helps those which commit said possible wrongs in their survival. Evil is therefore strictly a human thing, and it's the Xtian god who rightfully gets the credit for inventing humans and their evil, not the devil and demons which he, seeing all that they would do, did not refrain from creating as well.

Way to cling to the very worst parts of fundamentalism.

(March 11, 2016 at 3:51 pm)Tiberius Wrote: If you eradicate suffering, then happiness becomes meaningless, because you have nothing to compare it to.

This definitely falls into the category of "So what's your point?".

And for sake of argument, let us say there is a god. Does not god do just fine without evil and temptation?

(March 11, 2016 at 5:17 pm)God of Mr. Hanky Wrote: You really are doing good with the way you layer on the shit, but Rob's parents didn't invent evil, therefore evil is not what they are culpable for when others do it. Since it exists anyway, all good parents must teach their children about avoiding it. While Xtians deny that their god is responsible for inventing evil, DAFUQ - He's everything, and you cannot deny that if you believe he made everything! He is all of this universe's material (where the fuck else did it come from), he invented life, animal decision-making, and the human brain, and all the chemical switches which allow the choice between sociable and anti-social behaviors.

Christian doctrine doesn't say that God is "all of this universe's material", so I'm not sure what you're getting at there. Christianity is certainly not pantheistic. As for where the universe came from; you seem to be applying the laws of physics (which even physicists will argue only apply to objects *within* our current universe) to God, which doesn't work either scientifically or theologically. God exists outside of the universe; he invented the laws of physics; he isn't bound by them. God, being all-powerful, can create matter out of nothing; that's where the universe's material came from.

Quote:With a word he breathed out life, and then he farted and out came demons and evil.

Not how that happened but I have a suspicion you aren't trying to take this conversation seriously.

Quote:What is criminal in humanity isn't wrong with other species if it helps those which commit said possible wrongs in their survival. Evil is therefore strictly a human thing, and it's the Xtian god who rightfully gets the credit for inventing humans and their evil, not the devil and demons which he, seeing all that they would do, did not refrain from creating as well.

Here's the argument: God didn't create evil, he created the ability for humans to choose. God could have created a universe where humans were mindlessly moral beings, going around, never murdering, never raping, never stealing, etc. God didn't want that for humans though; he wanted beings that had the same freedom of choice that he did, so they weren't bound to him, but rather had to choose him over everything else.

As a result of free will, humans can choose not to do good things, which is what we call evil. Are good and evil separate things at all, or is evil just the absence of good? Did God invent darkness, or is darkness just the absence of light, which God did invent? Same with good/evil.

(March 11, 2016 at 5:25 pm)IATIA Wrote: This definitely falls into the category of "So what's your point?".

And for sake of argument, let us say there is a god. Does not god do just fine without evil and temptation?

Well my point was that without suffering, we have nothing to compare happiness with, so happiness would become a meaningless emotion.

God does just fine without evil and temptation because God is a perfect being who cannot do wrong (so cannot do evil) and is not tempted for the same reason.

I don't know about Christian doctrine nor can I speak for Islam as an official doctrine or represent it...but I believe there is not a thing that can be created from nothing.  It's impossible. God creates but creation existence is linked to God's existence, I would give the analogy of ray to the sun, but the ray become separate from the sun, while creation never loses it's link to God and is passed away in the source.

(God) Is in everything, but without being merged into them.-Imam Ali.

Whatever existence is, it's full out existence. Everything else is more semi-existence and depends on the independent existence for life. Not only that, but they defining from, it's reality, it's identity, it's creation is given from God and guided by him, and I don't simply mean created from nothing but actually given from God. As in these two statements are from the angle that they contradict each other.

Not only that, but we are so linked to the source that we see it from a distance, and the greatest signs of God as so passed away in the source, that they point to it.

(March 11, 2016 at 5:57 pm)Tiberius Wrote:

(March 11, 2016 at 5:17 pm)God of Mr. Hanky Wrote: You really are doing good with the way you layer on the shit, but Rob's parents didn't invent evil, therefore evil is not what they are culpable for when others do it. Since it exists anyway, all good parents must teach their children about avoiding it. While Xtians deny that their god is responsible for inventing evil, DAFUQ - He's everything, and you cannot deny that if you believe he made everything! He is all of this universe's material (where the fuck else did it come from), he invented life, animal decision-making, and the human brain, and all the chemical switches which allow the choice between sociable and anti-social behaviors.

Christian doctrine doesn't say that God is "all of this universe's material", so I'm not sure what you're getting at there. Christianity is certainly not pantheistic. As for where the universe came from; you seem to be applying the laws of physics (which even physicists will argue only apply to objects *within* our current universe) to God, which doesn't work either scientifically or theologically. God exists outside of the universe; he invented the laws of physics; he isn't bound by them. God, being all-powerful, can create matter out of nothing; that's where the universe's material came from.

Quote:With a word he breathed out life, and then he farted and out came demons and evil.

Not how that happened but I have a suspicion you aren't trying to take this conversation seriously.

It's a rare atheist who can take this nonsense seriously enough to spend days arguing for it, but it's your site, therefore it's your party, so knock yourself out.

Quote:

Quote:What is criminal in humanity isn't wrong with other species if it helps those which commit said possible wrongs in their survival. Evil is therefore strictly a human thing, and it's the Xtian god who rightfully gets the credit for inventing humans and their evil, not the devil and demons which he, seeing all that they would do, did not refrain from creating as well.

Here's the argument: God didn't create evil, he created the ability for humans to choose. God could have created a universe where humans were mindlessly moral beings, going around, never murdering, never raping, never stealing, etc. God didn't want that for humans though; he wanted beings that had the same freedom of choice that he did, so they weren't bound to him, but rather had to choose him over everything else.

As a result of free will, humans can choose not to do good things, which is what we call evil. Are good and evil separate things at all, or is evil just the absence of good? Did God invent darkness, or is darkness just the absence of light, which God did invent? Same with good/evil.

(March 11, 2016 at 5:25 pm)IATIA Wrote: This definitely falls into the category of "So what's your point?".

And for sake of argument, let us say there is a god.  Does not god do just fine without evil and temptation?

Well my point was that without suffering, we have nothing to compare happiness with, so happiness would become a meaningless emotion.

God does just fine without evil and temptation because God is a perfect being who cannot do wrong (so cannot do evil) and is not tempted for the same reason.