(March 11, 2016 at 11:24 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(March 11, 2016 at 10:55 pm)Irrational Wrote: No, not necessarily. We're either children of God or children of the devil. Depends on Christian interpretations and what passages matter more to the Christian.

I personally have never even heard of this before. This is the first time I'm seeing it. Not saying there aren't Christians out there who believe some humans are children of the Devil, but this is definitely not mainstream Christianity.

Really???

Ok, must be difference experiences then as Christian.

Here's a verse in the Bible to illustrate my point:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...+John+3:10

bennyboy...in Quran there is three type of repentances:

1. Guaranteed accepted.

(This is when you do it soon after the sin, show sincere regret soon after)

2. Can be accepted depending on if you redeem yourself and if you go straight and are guided.

(This doesn't have to be soon after)

3. A type that is always rejected.

The type you do it at last second before death. Now you see death coming to you, and say I will repent. The Quran alludes (in most cases, generally, there maybe exceptions) such people actually die while disbelievers. They didn't have faith and now God is not going to give it to them because they want to repent now that death comes to them as some sort of guarantee.

Here are the various translations of the verse:

Sahih International: But repentance is not [accepted] of those who [continue to] do evil deeds up until, when death comes to one of them, he says, "Indeed, I have repented now," or of those who die while they are disbelievers. For them We have prepared a painful punishment.

Pickthall: The forgiveness is not for those who do ill-deeds until, when death attendeth upon one of them, he saith: Lo! I repent now; nor yet for those who die while they are disbelievers. For such We have prepared a painful doom.

Yusuf Ali: Of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them, and he says, "Now have I repented indeed;" nor of those who die rejecting Faith: for them have We prepared a punishment most grievous.

Shakir: And repentance is not for those who go on doing evil deeds, until when death comes to one of them, he says: Surely now I repent; nor (for) those who die while they are unbelievers. These are they for whom We have prepared a painful chastisement.

Muhammad Sarwar: There is no forgiveness for those who commit sin and do not repent until the last moment of their lives nor for those who die as unbelievers. For these people We have prepared a painful torment.

Mohsin Khan: And of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil deeds until death faces one of them and he says: "Now I repent;" nor of those who die while they are disbelievers. For them We have prepared a painful torment.

Arberry: But God shall not turn towards those who do evil deeds until, when one of them is visited by death, he says, 'Indeed now I repent,' neither to those who die disbelieving; for them We have prepared a painful chastisement.

(March 11, 2016 at 11:34 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(March 11, 2016 at 10:24 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: "Anything He doesn't like" means anything evil, though. And it also means doing it purposely with full knowledge and consent of the will, and with no remorse. That's the Catholic position anyway, not necessarily the position of every Christian denomination.

But it doesn't acknowledge how a person arrives at that state.  We know now how people end up that way-- abuse as children, neglect of parents, poverty, brain developmental issues, etc.  I could go to places in American ghettoes and say that just by being born into that environment, a person has a huge chance of going to hell, because he will HAVE to harden his heart to much evil in the world just to be tough enough to survive in that environment.

Rich white people are all about liberty and free will, because they haven't been robbed of their liberty or been punished (for the most part) for the ways the express their free will.  But where's the spiritual liberty of a crack baby who develops into a murderer?

If I was a catholic altar boy, and had been raped and then watched the rapist protected by the church, I wouldn't be much inclined to open my heart to God or to the church.  I'd be developing telephoto pictures in a basement darkroom and stockpiling a collection of machine guns.  And any God who wouldn't understand that I was on a lifelong full-tilt because of events completely beyond my control can't really be said to be omniscient.

Until the Catholic church makes robbing poor or abused people of an equal chance of encountering and accepting God's grace the greatest sin of all, I have to say that your vision of free will is an incoherent moral view.  Forgiveness is great, and so are rainbows and puppy dogs, but I feel people should pay for the harm they do to others, and should not get a free pass just because they want a last-minute stairway to heaven.

I don't think it works this way. You don't just ask for a last minute stairway to heaven and get it even though you're a horrible person. Only if your heart is truly good and you've sought forgiveness out of true remorse.

I don't agree with the whole people should pay for the things they've done idea. I always struggled more with thinking that nothing anyone could ever do could warrant an eternity in hell.

(March 11, 2016 at 11:41 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

---

bennyboy...in Quran there is three type of repentances:

1. Guaranteed accepted.

(This is when you do it soon after the sin, show sincere regret soon after)

2. Can be accepted depending on if you redeem yourself and if you go straight and are guided.

(This doesn't have to be soon after)

3. A type that is always rejected.

The type you do it at last second before death. Now you see death coming to you, and say I will repent. The Quran alludes (in most cases, generally, there maybe exceptions) such people actually die while disbelievers. They didn't have faith and now God is not going to give it to them because they want to repent now that death comes to them as some sort of guarantee.

Here are the various translations of the verse:

Sahih International: But repentance is not [accepted] of those who [continue to] do evil deeds up until, when death comes to one of them, he says, "Indeed, I have repented now," or of those who die while they are disbelievers. For them We have prepared a painful punishment.

Pickthall: The forgiveness is not for those who do ill-deeds until, when death attendeth upon one of them, he saith: Lo! I repent now; nor yet for those who die while they are disbelievers. For such We have prepared a painful doom.

Yusuf Ali: Of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them, and he says, "Now have I repented indeed;" nor of those who die rejecting Faith: for them have We prepared a punishment most grievous.

Shakir: And repentance is not for those who go on doing evil deeds, until when death comes to one of them, he says: Surely now I repent; nor (for) those who die while they are unbelievers. These are they for whom We have prepared a painful chastisement.

Muhammad Sarwar: There is no forgiveness for those who commit sin and do not repent until the last moment of their lives nor for those who die as unbelievers. For these people We have prepared a painful torment.

Mohsin Khan: And of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil deeds until death faces one of them and he says: "Now I repent;" nor of those who die while they are disbelievers. For them We have prepared a painful torment.

Arberry: But God shall not turn towards those who do evil deeds until, when one of them is visited by death, he says, 'Indeed now I repent,' neither to those who die disbelieving; for them We have prepared a painful chastisement.

---

I think that's a lot more coherent than the Catholic view with its indulgences and last-minute saves.

Here is the verses that both heaven and hell are transient (they both come to an end).

فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ شَقُوا فَفِي النَّارِ لَهُمْ فِيهَا زَفِيرٌ وَشَهِيقٌ {106}
[Shakir 11:106] So as to those who are unhappy, they shall be in the fire; for them shall be sighing and groaning in it:
[Pickthal 11:106] As for those who will be wretched (on that day) they will be in the Fire; sighing and wailing will be their portion therein,
[Yusufali 11:106] Those who are wretched shall be in the Fire: There will be for them therein (nothing but) the heaving of sighs and sobs:

خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا مَا دَامَتِ السَّمَاوَاتُ وَالْأَرْضُ إِلَّا مَا شَاءَ رَبُّكَ ۚ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ فَعَّالٌ لِمَا يُرِيدُ {107}
[Shakir 11:107] Abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord please; surely your Lord is the mighty doer of what He intends.
[Pickthal 11:107] Abiding there so long as the heavens and the earth endure save for that which thy Lord willeth. Lo! thy Lord is Doer of what He will.
[Yusufali 11:107] They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as thy Lord willeth: for thy Lord is the (sure) accomplisher of what He planneth.
وَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ سُعِدُوا فَفِي الْجَنَّةِ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا مَا دَامَتِ السَّمَاوَاتُ وَالْأَرْضُ إِلَّا مَا شَاءَ رَبُّكَ ۖ عَطَاءً غَيْرَ مَجْذُوذٍ {108}
[Shakir 11:108] And as to those who are made happy, they shall be in the garden, abiding in it as long as the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord please; a gift which shall never be cut off.
[Pickthal 11:108] And as for those who will be glad (that day) they will be in the Garden, abiding there so long as the heavens and the earth endure save for that which thy Lord willeth: a gift unfailing.
[Yusufali 11:108] And those who are blessed shall be in the Garden: They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as thy Lord willeth: a gift without break.

My comment: I think the final line "a gift unfailing/without break/never be cut off" is to show even when heaven ends, it's reward is part of who we are, and will make us something more.

(March 11, 2016 at 11:42 pm)Losty Wrote: I don't think it works this way. You don't just ask for a last minute stairway to heaven and get it even though you're a horrible person. Only if your heart is truly good and you've sought forgiveness out of true remorse.

I don't agree with the whole people should pay for the things they've done idea. I always struggled more with thinking that nothing anyone could ever do could warrant an eternity in hell.

My problem isn't with the forgiveness of sins. It's in the inequity in free will which will cause abused parties to harden their heart, and therefore go to Hell, when their abusers still have a chance to redeem themselves and go to Heaven.

Some people are put in situations in which heart-hardening is a survival tactic. Others are put in situations where life is pretty much puppy dogs and rainbows, and nothing could be easier than feeling full of love and acceptance. Compton kids don't get to buy their Starbucks coffee, put on their designer yoga pants, and spend the morning on a mat in the park spiritually embracing everyone. They have to fight for their lunch money, watch their friends get beaten or worse, watch their moms shoot up, and then get told by some rich white fuck, "Open your heart, my child." And the Catholic idea of God is that if this poor kid is unable to do so, he will be condemned to suffer forever without the grace of god. Worst. Father. Ever.

Here's some real comfort-- the dead will cease to exist, and will neither suffer nor any longer cause suffering. That is the most perfect equality that the Universe could possibly offer us-- and it doesn't cost a dime!

(March 11, 2016 at 11:38 pm)Losty Wrote:

(March 11, 2016 at 11:32 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: In Shia ahadith, there is a concept of being spiritually born and related to the clay or light of the Prophet and his successors (all followers are considered this) or if one hates them then they are of of illegitimate birth (ie. his spirit and identity has take form and shape from Satan and the unclean unjust leaders of the world).

However it's not an either or thing. You can be neither. You can be neither born from the Guide and leader of time spiritually nor from Satan (illegitimate spiritual birth). 

There is people who mixed good and evil. They maybe forgiven or punished.

Shades of grey type of thing.

It's an ok story but I still prefer Harry Potter

*smile* - you made me laugh.

I don't know why it needs to be a racial thing, but I agree with you. I was just pointing out that it seemed like you were misrepresenting the stance that most Christians take with forgiveness

(March 11, 2016 at 11:35 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: As for your last question, that actually doesn't bother me. Over time, we come to learn more and understand more, through what we believe to be the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

So do those Catholics of the past, some of whom did things which are evil by our standards, go to Heaven or not? Is Heaven going to be filled with generations of Catholics who toed the party line? Are you some day going to be sharing God's grace with witch hunters, for example?

(March 12, 2016 at 12:02 am)Losty Wrote: I don't know why it needs to be a racial thing, but I agree with you. I was just pointing out that it seemed like you were misrepresenting the stance that most Christians take with forgiveness

 It's racial because people of privilege, being less pressed by trouble in their life, and having more free time for self-contemplation, are more likely to arrive at the conditions which CL says represent the acceptance of God's grace or whatever, and because the vast majority of those people are white. Given the emotional/psychological state that is required to go to Heaven, I'd say it's likely to consist mostly of the souls of white people.