(April 7, 2016 at 1:23 pm)SteveII Wrote: Evil, then, is the act itself of choosing the lesser good. To Augustine the source of evil is in the free will of persons:

And that is my problem with the human description of the alleged gods in the monotheistic religions. The god is always described as all powerful and all knowing*, yet when anything bad happens, it happens because god gave people free will and cannot interfere in their free will.

The first part is flatly contradicted by the second, because if god cannot interfere in others' decisions and actions then he is neither all powerful (he cannot stop them) nor is he all knowing (he cannot know ahead of time what they'll do). It blows the whole of the main christian apologetics argument against the problem of evil out of the water.

* You also cannot have an all powerful and all knowing god, but that is a whole 'nother can of worms that monotheist apologists have failed to adequately answer.

I haven't had time to watch the video posted of Scott Clifton. But, I would be interested in discussing this, if someone would like to sum up the arguments. I have always found it interesting that some people go to great effort to have an issue with the cosmological argument.

(April 8, 2016 at 11:00 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: I haven't had time to watch the video posted of Scott Clifton.  But, I would be interested in discussing this, if someone would like to sum up the arguments.

Not me. If you are curious enough, watch it yourself.

Quote:I have always found it interesting that some people go to great effort to have an issue with the cosmological argument.

It's because the CA is considered, by a great many theists and apologists, to be such powerful argument for the existence of a god, yet it is so obviously flawed.

Why shouldn't people care about correcting bad information and refuting fallacious arguments? Especially if the beliefs that come out of the bad information and fallacious arguments lead to bad or dangerous actions. 

The  main reason why there are outspoken atheists in the first place, is because they/we think the world would be a much better place to live if the vast majority of humanity held as many true beliefs as possible, and as few false beliefs as possible, and if critical thinking and skepticism were considered virtues, instead of faith being considered a virtue.

(April 8, 2016 at 10:31 am)Constable Dorfl Wrote:

(April 7, 2016 at 1:23 pm)SteveII Wrote: Evil, then, is the act itself of choosing the lesser good. To Augustine the source of evil is in the free will of persons:

And that is my problem with the human description of the alleged gods in the monotheistic religions. The god is always described as all powerful and all knowing*, yet when anything bad happens, it happens because god gave people free will and cannot interfere in their free will.

The first part is flatly contradicted by the second, because if god cannot interfere in others' decisions and actions then he is neither all powerful (he cannot stop them) nor is he all knowing (he cannot know ahead of time what they'll do). It blows the whole of the main christian apologetics argument against the problem of evil out of the water.

* You also cannot have an all powerful and all knowing god, but that is a whole 'nother can of worms that monotheist apologists have failed to adequately answer.

Assuming that it even exists (improbable, at best), does free will exist in Heaven?  And, if so, is god "interfering" with the free will of his/her/its creatures?  And, if free will can exist in an eternal Paradise, why not in a natural world free of any suffering?

(April 8, 2016 at 7:26 pm)Jehanne Wrote: does free will exist in Heaven?  

No free will doesn't exist in heaven. Reason being you will be in a euphoric state of eternal happiness. 
Also you would be worshiping that all mighty asshole god for eternity. 

(April 8, 2016 at 7:48 pm)dyresand Wrote:

(April 8, 2016 at 7:26 pm)Jehanne Wrote: does free will exist in Heaven?  

No free will doesn't exist in heaven. Reason being you will be in a euphoric state of eternal happiness. 
Also you would be worshiping that all mighty asshole god for eternity. 

Then it seems that god is interfering with his/her/its creatures to choose to worship him willingly.

The existence of heaven flatly contradicts all the excuses Christians normally make about why this world contains evil.

It's possible in heaven, so why not here?

Of course, God could have just put us there in the first place. Stop all this screwing around. Why would he need to "test" or "prepare" his own creations, when he can make them to be exactly how he wants them?

(April 4, 2016 at 9:42 pm)Jehanne Wrote: He has stated in several of his debates that the "Argument of Evil" is a "dead argument," abandoned by "philosophers everywhere."  I used to believe his shit; no more:

http://www.closertotruth.com/series/does...sprove-god

You're find several distinguished philosophers in the above list (such as Tooley & Smith) who explicitly invoke the argument of evil against the existence of god.

Don't believe Criag; he is a conscious liar.

...Ok.

People like him give philosphy a bad name.

(April 9, 2016 at 3:45 am)robvalue Wrote: People like him give philosphy a bad name.

To the extent that Craig does philosophy, and in my view excellent theology is basic philosophy, he's good... unfortunately Christianity (especially Protestantism) is only mediocre theology and horrible philosophy and Craig is a Protestant Christian.