(March 26, 2009 at 4:27 pm)Edward Wrote: I can't do it. I've tried. I've tried to be an atheist, but it doesn't work.

I find this one sentence rather puzzling. What exactly did you expect "trying to be an atheist" would do if "trying to be an atheist" would work?

(March 27, 2009 at 12:47 am)Edward Wrote: [quote='Kyuuketsuki' pid='12531' dateline='1238099904']IMO (and it is just opinion) it's no good trying to be an atheist ... it's just a label, it's what you are when other things force you to the realisation that there are no gods. I'm an atheist because the available evidence, or absence of, indicates there is no god (strongly IMO), if the available evidence indicated there was a god I'd become a theist.

Do you believe in quarks? Why? When have you ever experienced them? What evidence outside of an appeal to authority do you have for the existence of quarks, or for that matter that the moon is solid, or for that matter that the sun will rise tomorrow.[/quote]

Not specifically but the quark model does tend to explain things quite well and is now supported by some significant evidence including the high-energy annihilation of electrons and positrons producing muon-antimuon pairs or quark-antiquark pairs that ultimately produce hadrons. The most recent evidence lends support to the six quark, three colour model over the five quark, three colour model.

There's quite a nice slide set explanation here and if you're into bittorrent at all you can download an excellent BBC 3 part series called "Atom" which takes you through the history of atomic theory right up to current thought.

Ultimately I accept these things because they are part of science, because they are published in scientific journals and presented to us laypeople in popular science books, magazines and programming. If you think that means I know nothing then fine, believe that, but if you do I think I'll choose to believe you're a scientific know-nothing ... that sound about fair?

To my mind it sounds to me like you're advancing the view that none of us can prove the world exists at all which is fine but if you genuinely believe that then all I can suggest ids that you test it. I've always thought that a good test would be to step out into the middle of a lane full of fast moving traffic but, with the greatest respect of course, I would rather not because I AM prepared to assume this world is real.

The sun is likely to rise tomorrow for some very good reasons, firstly it has been observed to rise (always in the east) for all of recorded history secondly because we have some significant evidence and pretty damned accurate scientific models that explain exactly why the sun rises each day, why it rises in the east and why it is likely it will continue doing so. Not trying to be funny here Edward but did you attend any science classes at school and beyond?

(March 27, 2009 at 12:47 am)Edward Wrote: For 99.99% of the knowledge we have, we have no direct evidence.

So what, nothing is science says we have to observe these things with our own little twinkies.

(March 27, 2009 at 12:47 am)Edward Wrote: [quote='Kyuuketsuki' pid='12531' dateline='1238099904']To deny order in the universe however, now that's about on the level of mentally ill.

Agreed, science is about order, reason and explicability.

(March 27, 2009 at 12:47 am)Edward Wrote: [quote='Kyuuketsuki' pid='12531' dateline='1238099904']We believe what we choose to believe.

True but atheism isn't a belief, it's a label. It carries no philosophy whatsoever, carries none of the ritualistic trappings of religion ... it is not a belief; you can't choose to be one.

(March 27, 2009 at 12:47 am)Edward Wrote: It doesn't change the truth at all. Sometimes there is global warming, sometimes there isn't.

Actually scientific consensus is pretty much that there is.

(March 27, 2009 at 12:47 am)Edward Wrote: I'm afraid your a bit innocent, my friend.

You might get banned for a number of things but advancing untenable points of view isn't one of them. .

(March 27, 2009 at 12:47 am)Edward Wrote: Uh huh. Well, it's the being intentionally disruptive part that has such a broad definition, isn't it?

Adrian pretty much said it dude and besides, you've got some way to go before you're as irritating as some other posters here ... personally I think there's hope for you yet.

(March 27, 2009 at 12:47 am)Edward Wrote: The Catholic Church is good for nothing if not for producing atheists.

There are over a billion Catholics worldwide so I'm afraid you're going to have to back that up with a little bit more than, "I say it so it's true!

Kyu

(March 27, 2009 at 12:47 am)Edward Wrote:

(March 26, 2009 at 4:41 pm)Tiberius Wrote:

(March 26, 2009 at 4:27 pm)Edward Wrote: I believe that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life.

Yeah...that's kinda the definition of a Christian dude.

As I explained, but you ignored, the term "Christian" is a misnomer. What you think of as Christian is really a Judeo-Christian. I am not that.

Didn't ignore it, I use the term Christian in that exact context. Anyone who claims Jesus Christ is the "way, the truth, and the life" and that God is the Father is a Christian. I don't care if you think the Bible is made up, or if Jesus didn't get resurrected, or whatever. If you follow the teachings of Jesus then you are a Christian.

That's what I think of as a Christian.

(March 27, 2009 at 7:42 am)Tiberius Wrote: Didn't ignore it, I use the term Christian in that exact context. Anyone who claims Jesus Christ is the "way, the truth, and the life" and that God is the Father is a Christian. I don't care if you think the Bible is made up, or if Jesus didn't get resurrected, or whatever. If you follow the teachings of Jesus then you are a Christian.

That's what I think of as a Christian.

Not sure about the first part (way, truth, light etc.) but I certainly would hold that anyone who bases their beliefs on the bible, in essence follows (by and large) Jesus's teachings is a Christian.

Kyu

Edward, you are a christian. Just as Adrian say. You can come out of the closet

Seriously, many of the priest here in Sweden are like you. They have a very abstract view of their religion. Their thoughts acctually have many similarities with buddhism. The main reason why they are christians is that they think the christian view of life is great.

But religion is irrational. It's also non-logical and based on imagination and fantasies. It's giving easy answers on difficult questions. A perfect example that the human brain often try to find patterns where there are no patterns.

I agree with you guys, you can't try to be an atheist. It takes a long time to get to the point (for me it did anyways) to throw away a belief in any god. But, once you are shown the light, you can't unknow that knowledge. Even if you wanted to believe you couldn't anyway. So you were never really an atheist.

(March 27, 2009 at 3:01 am)Demonaura Wrote: I will still disagree that our beleifs are a matter of choice. I'd love to have an unshakeable faith that I was protected by the divine but, I can't simply choose to think that.

I like the way you put that, because it's the same for me but 180 degrees out. I can't help but believe God is there and watching out for me. I feel like God is my Father, and at the same time that I am connected to God as if we were one and the same, and sometimes I wonder if this is how Jesus Christ felt.

I would say, now after so many years (sixteen years to be exact), that I am hardwired for my belief. And it's not like I have this fear of death, per se. I don't believe I will continue to exist after I die, or at least not like most people think. I get this sense that I can't shake that when I die, my consciousness will simply disipate and all that will be left is the mind of the Father. The life of Edward will then become a perfect memory in the mind of God, as are all lives.

Having said that, Jesus spoke clearly about heaven, hell and judgment day. I think Jesus is the truth, so I don't doubt these states of existence are real. Where a memory is kept, how it is viewed, how often it is visited, and how it makes the Father feel to revisit His memories, perhaps this is what heaven and hell are.[/quote]

Quote:I can tell myself it's the truth all day long but, I'll never buy it unless something gives me a reason to do so. Such as seeing something that was a miracle, something unexplainable that appears to disreguard the known laws of the universe.

That wouldn't work either. You'd just think you were insane. What's the difference between seeing a miracle and a hallucination?

Quote:But without something happening to provide new evidence I cannot choose to beleive anything, I choose my label, I choose my company but, my beleifs are a result of my experiences. Also something I have had little luck explaining via the internet, I put a certain 'weight' on things that others do not; for example I would not kill one child even if it saved one hundred other lives.

Well now, that's a starting point. Because that's a "God" type of morality. Think about it. Only God could think that way. No rational human being would do that. No way of trying to figure out an ethical situation logically would produce that kind of morality. Only God acts like that. Jesus spoke like that when he compared the Father to a shepherd who leaves the 99 sheep in the flock to go and save the one who is lost. Now you have your miracle; now you have your evidence: there is something residing in you, a type of morality that your "experience" didn't give you.

Only God can walk into a burning orphanage, pick up one child from a crib and go walking and whistling out the door while the other thousand are left to burn. Think about it.

---

(March 27, 2009 at 7:42 am)Tiberius Wrote: That's what I think of as a Christian.

Atheists consider me to be a Christian. But Christians don't. To them, I'm one of those who say "Lord, Lord" but Jesus in the end says, "Depart from me, I never knew you."

Of course I think the same way about most of them, so around and 'round we go.

And in truth, especially when it comes to my elderly patients, if the topic ever arises, I just claim to be a non-denominational Christian. If I'm talking to a Mormon, I talk about how sure I am that Joseph Smith was a real prophet. If I talk to a JW, I tell them how interesting I find some of their beliefs on the nature of Christ, and how I have never met a JW I didn't have the greatest respect for. If I'm talking to an atheist, then I bash the idiocy of religion altogether.

It really doesn't matter, does it? I mean, you as an atheist should know that it doesn't really matter. We are, afterall, just matter. Right?

(March 27, 2009 at 8:09 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Not sure about the first part (way, truth, light etc.) but I certainly would hold that anyone who bases their beliefs on the bible, in essence follows (by and large) Jesus's teachings is a Christian.

Kyu

Well, I'm certainly not part of the Christian Church.

(March 26, 2009 at 4:27 pm)Edward Wrote: I can't do it. I've tried. I've tried to be an atheist, but it doesn't work. I'm not a Christian, and I'm not an atheist. I believe in God as our Father (even if that is a dualistic metaphor I have to cling to in order to understand God) and I believe that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life.

I'm going to echo what other people have mentioned in that I have a problem with your stated of "I've tried". You don't try to be an atheist, it's just what you are. I'm speaking mainly for myself here but I've heard other atheists say the same thing, you don't wake up and decide "I'm not going to believe in God anymore! He's a jerk!" Or something like that. If you are in a religion and then become an atheist, it's a process. I was in a time in my life when confirmation was around the corner and I ahd to elarn about my faith. It was then that I investigated what was being taught and came to the conclusion that I didn't buy it. The more I looked into it the less it made sense until about 2 years later I had gotten to the point where I realized I was an atheist. I wasn't like "Ooh, this atheism looks neat, I think I'll try it." Atheism is simply lacking the belief and after years of learning I actually thinking about what I believe I came to the conclusion of atheism.

I hate to use a "no true Scottsman" fallacy but I think in this case it really does apply. If all you were doing was "trying" then you weren't an atheist. You can just try to stop believing in a god, you need to simply just not be convinced of the evidence for a god. You're promoting one of the common misconceptions of atheism if you say you tried.

(March 26, 2009 at 4:27 pm)Edward Wrote: I am not a Christian, however, because Christians aren't what they say they are. They are, in fact, Judeo-Christians. That means, the religion they practice is a combination of Judaism and the teachings of Jesus Christ.

If you believe in Jesus Christ you're a Christian, end of story. Honestly you can call yourself whatever you want, but words are how we define them, this is how we communicate. And simply put the definition of Christian is to believe in Christ and you have quite plainly said you do. You can't claim the definition and then deny the word, it's just silly.

(March 27, 2009 at 12:54 pm)Edward Wrote: We are, afterall, just matter. Right?

just matter???...just matter???

We are the result of a 4 billion year long struggle to survive, and before that the result of a multi-billion year process of the formation of the Earth, and the solar system, and the galaxy, and the universe. We are so advanced we have developed a consciousness and our self-awareness is greater than that of all other animals on the planet. We have used this self-awareness to explore the natural world, and we have learned as much as possible about it along the way. We're now on the verge of yet another scientific revolution as new forms of energy get researched, and we know more about where we came from that we have ever done.

No. We are not "just matter". We are human beings.

(March 27, 2009 at 1:59 pm)Tiberius Wrote: No. We are not "just matter". We are human beings.

...made from matter. *runs*


Actually I agree, saying we're just matter is silly. It would be like saying a book is just paper.