(April 8, 2016 at 9:02 am)AtlasS33 Wrote:

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RozKek

Quote:Like the one where the Qur'an says that iron came from outer space. "How could Mahmoud possibly know that a stunning 1400 years ago before modern science?" Well he fucking didn't. It was knowledge taken from the ancient Egyptians, they knew about it around 5000 years ago because they harvested iron from meteorites. And I'm pretty sure you can see meteoroids (meteorites before impact) falling from outer space/the sky. So there goes one scientific "miracle" to hell. Also note that it wasn't God's words. It was ancient Egyptians knawwledge implemented into the Qur'an.

[source: http://www.nature.com/news/iron-in-egypt...ce-1.13091]

No, you would've won this argument if you refuted the verse, and broke it against scientific evidence.
You should focus on that. Claiming that Mohammed peace be upon him went to the pyramids, and cracked the hieroglyphic cipher, stole the egyptian knowledge, then came back to Arabia, to shower the world with stolen knowledge...Or else, how would Mohammed understand ancient Egyptian religion, when it was forgotten, you realize that Egypt was Christian at that time, and the Eastern Roman Empire was controlling it, right?

Oh well.. you can't except me to take you seriously.

Quote:"But, what about when the Qur'an mentions the BIG BANG!?" Actually the Qur'an wasn't first. The Sumerians were, it was a sumerian creation story (didn't represent the Big Bang fyi, just misinterpreted). So the people who wrote the Qur'an thought this made sense and implemented it into the Qur'an. 

[source: http://nautil.us/issue/17/big-bangs/the-...tion-story]

You do realize, that Islam is linked with Christianity, Judaism and perhaps every religion you see on earth today?
Actually if you believe in Islam, you believe that the first religion to come to earth was the monolithic faith:

( Sura 2 Verse 213 )   Mankind was [of] one religion [before their deviation]; then Allah sent the prophets as bringers of good tidings and warners and sent down with them the Scripture in truth to judge between the people concerning that in which they differed. And none differed over the Scripture except those who were given it - after the clear proofs came to them - out of jealous animosity among themselves. And Allah guided those who believed to the truth concerning that over which they had differed, by His permission. And Allah guides whom He wills to a straight path.

And Babylon was mentioned too as one of the lands the received the message:

(Sura 2 102 )   And they followed [instead] what the devils had recited during the reign of Solomon. It was not Solomon who disbelieved, but the devils disbelieved, teaching people magic and that which was revealed to the two angels at Babylon, Harut and Marut. But the two angels do not teach anyone unless they say, "We are a trial, so do not disbelieve [by practicing magic]." And [yet] they learn from them that by which they cause separation between a man and his wife. But they do not harm anyone through it except by permission of Allah. And the people learn what harms them and does not benefit them. But the Children of Israel certainly knew that whoever purchased the magic would not have in the Hereafter any share. And wretched is that for which they sold themselves, if they only knew.

Technically, the real message got twisted over the time, a little by little, up until the turned heathen.
The Quran is all about these ancient nations and how they forged the message of God, the one and only God.

Quote:"Hold on, the Qur'an says that the our Earth is spherical, explain that!" Yeah, thanks to Pythagoras around 500 B.C. an ancient greek mathematician and philosophor had the brains to calculate it/know it, so, yeah. It was possible before modern science. Here again the writers of the Qur'an took knowledge from others and implemented it. Scientific "miracle"? Nope.

[source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoras] (CTRL+F search: spherical)

Yeah, I made a topic that said exactly this, and it was...embarrassing.

http://atheistforums.org/thread-32041.html

 The members here ended my ignorant post. So your argument is only about ignorant people who use this as an argument.
Yep I was ignorant.

All of us were.

Quote:And don't even mention the embryo. It was also taken from the ancient greeks. They had theories on it, Aristotle studied it and even gave accurate description to the embryo development of a hound shark.

[source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle] (CTRL+F search: emb

ryo)

BTW I'm a programmer xD 
As for the fetus, then good for Aristotle. yes, ancient greek had briliant minds, but you again fail to refute the Quran.

You'll refute it if for example, if God said in it that the fetus is made of plastic or something.

Quote:What about when the Qur'an mentions that the moon doesn't shine, but reflects the sunlight? How could Mahmodi have known that? Yet again, taken from the ancient greeks.
Anaxagoras knew that the moon reflected didn't shine and reflected light around 500 B.C
[source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaxagoras] (CTRL+F search: moon)

I'm astonished by Mohammed's -peace be upon him- great wide mind, that could :

1-Decipher ancient Egyptian language
2-Travel to Greece and learn there
3-Write in Arabic, despite him not knowing how to read or write
4-Learn in different languages, while he can't even write in his own language.

Stunning.

Quote:I don't care enough to mention others, if there are any... And before you ask how could Muhammed have had access to all this knowledge. Well if you didn't skip school, or at least made your research then you would have known around the times the Qur'an was written or modified, the arabic empire was huge. It stretched out very far, and they were great at trading since they made their own silver coins, which became more and more common. They had many universities filled with ancient greek knowledge, they had even learnt a lot from the Indians, including mathematics, medicine etc. And all the knowledge they've taken has been in their reach: Mesopotamia, ancient Greece, Sumer etc. Coincidence?

Don't bother. They worthy of kinder garden debates.
You can use them against Sunni/Shia Muslims and irritate them with them -especially saying Mahmoudi-.

As for the line that destroyed you in my eyes, along with the ignorance you made me waste my time answering, Arabs never got an empire before Islam.
Since you're mentally challenged in this regard, I won't give you articles to read, but documentries to watch:





Stop wasting my time please.

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I'll respond in order from top to bottom.

Alright, let's say that he didn't crack the code all by himself, blablabla. The point is that the knowledge of iron coming from outer space was well known without the help of god. So the only option isn't that god gave them the knowledge. To answer "How could people have known it before modern science without the help of god?" Apparently they could and they did. Even if it wasn't taken from the Ancient Egyptians, they themselves could have known and implementend the knowledge into the Qur'an. Therefore the argument "How could they have known etc" is not valid.

First you got to provide evidence that the Qur'an is a reliable source before taking its word that the first religion ever was monolithic.
The Qur'an mentioning Babylon is just a stronger indication that they most likely have taken knowledge from there. But there is still no evidence that the "message" was from a god. Yes, they are linked and have similiar textures, but I do not see how it is evidence for god. Just that the writers thought that was from god and spread the information. Also the interesting thing here is, the Babylonians are mentioned in the Qur'an and the muslims came in good contacts with the Babylonians (Mesopotamia - North Africa) after Muhammad's death. Since the Babylonians were mentioned in the Qur'an I'd say that is a quite strong indication that the Qur'an was written/finished/modified around or after the times the islamic/arabic empires had good access to knowledge/trading etc, like I have mentioned. 
[source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mu..._dynasties] (read History)
Also you again, you use the Qur'an as a reliable source when saying the message got twisted over time and that the message was forged by ancient nations etc. You got to prove the Qur'an true before making claims in the name of it.

It isn't embarrassing to be corrected. We've all been corrected.

My point here is that it was known without the help of god. And I did mention the muslims had good access to greek knowledge. If I remember correctly by the 12th century they had 20 universities with preserved greek knowledge. So that is a very strong indication that the muslims got the knowledge from the greeks and implemented it into the Qur'an. It wasn't some sort of miracle, therefore it isn't evidence for the Qur'an being true. Also since the Qur'an mentions the Babylonians which came in good contact with the islamic empires after Muhammed's death which as I earlier said indicates that the Qur'an was written/finished/modified after Muhammed's death allows for the implementation of greek knowledge too.
Also: "He is created from a drop (of sperm) emitted-- Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs. (Qur'an 86:6-7)" Is wrong, sperm doesn't originate between the backone and the ribs. And "clothed the bones with flesh (Quran 23:13-14)" Is also wrong, living tissue grows first, then bones. There, I presented you errors in the Qur'an. Isn't that actually enough to dismiss the whole Qur'an?

You very very well know that you're just dumbing down what I said. Obviously he didn't do such things by himself. I've stated before that the muslims had good access to greek knowledge. 

Funny how you highlight my words yet you seem to believe that I said the Arabs had an empire before Islam. I didn't. I said "Around the times the Qur'an was written or modified". 
Maybe I was wrong with it being huge and stretching out very far. But I certainly wasn't wrong when it comes to "... they were great at trading since they made their own silver coins, which became more and more common. They had many universities filled with ancient greek knowledge, they had even learnt a lot from the Indians, including mathematics, medicine etc. And all the knowledge they've taken has been in their reach: Mesopotamia, ancient Greece, Sumer etc. Coincidence?".
And no thanks to the documentary, it seems biased.

Excuse me if I have any typos, misspellings etc. Yet again, I wrote this quite late at night.
I hope you approach my response rationally.

Quote:Alright, let's say that he didn't crack the code all by himself, blablabla. The point is that the knowledge of iron coming from outer space was well known without the help of god. So the only option isn't that god gave them the knowledge. To answer "How could people have known it before modern science without the help of god?" Apparently they could and they did. Even if it wasn't taken from the Ancient Egyptians, they themselves could have known and implementend the knowledge into the Qur'an. Therefore the argument "How could they have known etc" is not valid.

No. You don't get to say "let's say". We a historical fact, that is "hieroglyphs weren't decoded before 1820" by Jean-Francois, you can view its full history in here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_hieroglyphs


The sentence in bold, in your comment, is not an argument, and a 12 years old "blablabla" fallacy, does not level up to be an argument.
Mohammed didn't crack the hieroglyphs -history proves it-. 

As a sidenote though, Ancient Egyptians -according to your own link- said that "the bones of Gods" were made out of precious metals. They also said that the skeletons of Gods are made out of Gold. Thus, seeing meteoroids containing iron made them say "the remains of Gods are raining on earth", they didn't say that Iron -as an element- came originally from the skies. 

The Quran didn't tell that story, it didn't even define "iron" like ancient Egyptians defined it: i.e being the remains of "celestial beings". 

Still, the main question you need to answer is this:

-Did Mohammed decipher the hieroglyphic allowing him to "steal" that ancient egyptian belief from ancient religious tablets, carved in hieroglyphic language, then twist it to fit the Quranic narrative?

Please, if you think so, apply to the closest university or historic institution so you record this discovery with your name and become famous.

Quote:First you got to provide evidence that the Qur'an is a reliable source before taking its word that the first religion ever was monolithic.
The Qur'an mentioning Babylon is just a stronger indication that they most likely have taken knowledge from there. But there is still no evidence that the "message" was from a god. Yes, they are linked and have similiar textures, but I do not see how it is evidence for god. Just that the writers thought that was from god and spread the information. Also the interesting thing here is, the Babylonians are mentioned in the Qur'an and the muslims came in good contacts with the Babylonians (Mesopotamia - North Africa) after Muhammad's death. Since the Babylonians were mentioned in the Qur'an I'd say that is a quite strong indication that the Qur'an was written/finished/modified around or after the times the islamic/arabic empires had good access to knowledge/trading etc, like I have mentioned. 
[source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mu..._dynasties] (read History)
Also you again, you use the Qur'an as a reliable source when saying the message got twisted over time and that the message was forged by ancient nations etc. You got to prove the Qur'an true before making claims in the name of it.

The Quran is providing a story, either you believe it or you don't.
The evidence is relative: depending on the individual. To me, the universe and life itself are enough of an evidence to assert the book, to you it's not. 

If mentioning others asserts one's theft of ideas and knowledge, then historians are all just such big thieves.

No. You didn't say  "Muslims had a big civilization". You said "Arabs". 

Quote:don't care enough to mention others, if there are any... And before you ask how could Muhammed have had access to all this knowledge. Well if you didn't skip school, or at least made your research then you would have known around the times the Qur'an was written or modified, the arabic empire was huge. It stretched out very far, and they were great at trading since they made their own silver coins, which became more and more common. They had many universities filled with ancient greek knowledge, they had even learnt a lot from the Indians, including mathematics, medicine etc. And all the knowledge they've taken has been in their reach: Mesopotamia, ancient Greece, Sumer etc. Coincidence?

The Quran was completetly written in one book during the time of the first caliph, Abu Bakr:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran#Compilation

Quote:Based on earlier transmitted reports, in the year 632, after the demise of Muhammad a number of his companions who knew the Quran by heart were killed in a battle by Musaylimah, the first caliph Abu Bakr (d. 634) decided to collect the book in one volume so that it could be preserved. Zayd ibn Thabit(d. 655) was the person to collect the Quran since "he used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle". Thus, a group of scribes, most importantly Zayd, collected the verses and produced a hand-written manuscript of the complete book. The manuscript according to Zayd remained with Abu Bakr until he died.

The Islamic society didn't even reach the level of an "empire" during the time of Abu Bakr, you can see its size yourself, during his reign:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakr



So, you have -and you must- excuse me when I display my utter wonder towards your statement:

Quote:you would have known around the times the Qur'an was written or modified, the arabic empire was huge

You could choose a different word if you don't want me to get the wrong impression. 

Quote:My point here is that it was known without the help of god. And I did mention the muslims had good access to greek knowledge. If I remember correctly by the 12th century they had 20 universities with preserved greek knowledge. So that is a very strong indication that the muslims got the knowledge from the greeks and implemented it into the Qur'an. It wasn't some sort of miracle, therefore it isn't evidence for the Qur'an being true. Also since the Qur'an mentions the Babylonians which came in good contact with the islamic empires after Muhammed's death which as I earlier said indicates that the Qur'an was written/finished/modified after Muhammed's death allows for the implementation of greek knowledge too.
Also: "He is created from a drop (of sperm) emitted-- Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs. (Qur'an 86:6-7)" Is wrong, sperm doesn't originate between the backone and the ribs. And "clothed the bones with flesh (Quran 23:13-14)" Is also wrong, living tissue grows first, then bones. There, I presented you errors in the Qur'an. Isn't that actually enough to dismiss the whole Qur'an?

You very very well know that you're just dumbing down what I said. Obviously he didn't do such things by himself. I've stated before that the muslims had good access to greek knowledge. 

They didn't have any good access to Greek knowledge. You saw the size of the "country" during the time the Quran was written;your argument is not valid according to historical evidence.

Quote:Funny how you highlight my words yet you seem to believe that I said the Arabs had an empire before Islam. I didn't. I said "Around the times the Qur'an was written or modified". 
Maybe I was wrong with it being huge and stretching out very far. But I certainly wasn't wrong when it comes to "... they were great at trading since they made their own silver coins, which became more and more common. They had many universities filled with ancient greek knowledge, they had even learnt a lot from the Indians, including mathematics, medicine etc. And all the knowledge they've taken has been in their reach: Mesopotamia, ancient Greece, Sumer etc. Coincidence?".
And no thanks to the documentary, it seems biased.

No. You said "Arabic empire" which seemed very ignorant, since Arabs -as people and as a race- never had an empire or even a country, until Sykes-Picot treaty and the fall of the Ottoman empire. 

Islam is not Arabs, and Arabs are not Islam. Arabs are people, Islam is a religion. Mixing them makes you look ignorant, and above all: racist.
You were wrong; there is no "maybe". Please admit it and let us get this over with. Unless you wanna drop another insult; I'm all ears.

Where are you (along with the others who gave you kudos on false historical data)?

Ironic..

So Atlas, we hand to wait 1400 years to get the correct interpretation of the verse about Allah's throne being on water? Even al-Saud's henchmen like Hamza Tzortis and Dawah Man are now saying don't use science to justify the Quran.

(April 28, 2016 at 5:48 am)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: So Atlas, we hand to wait 1400 years to get the correct interpretation of the verse about Allah's throne being on water? Even al-Saud's henchmen like Hamza Tzortis and Dawah Man are now saying don't use science to justify the Quran.

There is this verse:

(Sura 41 Verse 53 )   We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. But is it not sufficient concerning your Lord that He is, over all things, a Witness

It's speaking in the future tense; signs would be "shown" to people until they make sure it is the truth.
When you think about Islam, forget about the typical stereotypical way of "Sunnie/ Shia" that caused Muslims to forget the Quran and worship "tribal figures" and "long-bearded scholars" -just like Christians & Jews-; there is a context.

The context is very simple: we are here, on this planet, just to get tested. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not about God; it's about "US". The law of that God, is what gives "life"; worshiping him is life. So 1400 years, seems a decent lifespan. It's not God's fault that people choose to believe dictators and bigots and keep themselves occupied in lust and desire to a blinding degree, until a disaster hits them or a world war wakes them up; the signs are there, but the 1400 years are not God's fault; it's humanities fault.

Yet, Abraham -peace be upon him- for example, cracked through and saw reality for what it is..we can see reality.
Tell humans to stop hating, killing, robbing & fucking for a moment, then I'm sure those signs will be more clear..I mean that literally. And cut the ego, too.

So basically, tell humans to stop being human? That's reasonable.

(March 24, 2016 at 10:26 pm)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote:

This is horribly hilarious.

(April 28, 2016 at 4:53 pm)Stimbo Wrote: So basically, tell humans to stop being human? That's reasonable.

There is "better" fate, a better "creature" inside each and every one of us. Attributes such as weakness (physical and mental), desire ( such as obsessive power/wealth seeking), these are embedded in us, but we can always combat them, thus we are not our desires and attributes, you are not what you look like, we can choose to discriminate against "different beings", but indeed we can also house the sick and adopt cats, despite looking different and still: acting different.

This verse:

(Sura 6 Verse 165 )   And it is He who has made you successors upon the earth and has raised some of you above others in degrees [of rank] that He may try you through what He has given you. Indeed, your Lord is swift in penalty; but indeed, He is Forgiving and Merciful.

It's an illusion after all..a virtual environment for a short period, to judge how we would fair against scum like Satan.
And eventually, you are what you did. You are nothing, but your deeds. Nothing remains but your deeds.

(April 29, 2016 at 3:07 am)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(April 28, 2016 at 4:53 pm)Stimbo Wrote: So basically, tell humans to stop being human? That's reasonable.

There is "better" fate, a better "creature" inside each and every one of us. Attributes such as weakness (physical and mental), desire ( such as obsessive power/wealth seeking), these are embedded in us, but we can always combat them, thus we are not our desires and attributes, you are not what you look like, we can choose to discriminate against "different beings", but indeed we can also house the sick and adopt cats, despite looking different and still: acting different.

This verse:

(Sura 6 Verse 165 )   And it is He who has made you successors upon the earth and has raised some of you above others in degrees [of rank] that He may try you through what He has given you. Indeed, your Lord is swift in penalty; but indeed, He is Forgiving and Merciful.

It's an illusion after all..a virtual environment for a short period, to judge how we would fair against scum like Satan.
And eventually, you are what you did. You are nothing, but your deeds. Nothing remains but your deeds.

Yeah, the obsessive desire to live eternally is embedded in some of us too, so lets trample over the ones who are not worthy of this eternal bliss, and impose our stupid idea of how to conduct ourselves on them, it's for their own good.

(April 29, 2016 at 3:20 am)Expired Wrote: Yeah, the obsessive desire to live eternally is embedded in some of us too, so lets trample over the ones who are not worthy of this eternal bliss, and impose our stupid idea of how to conduct ourselves on them, it's for their own good.

Actually, things should be totally on the opposite; one should not desire an eternal life "here" on earth; but in a different place in a different time under different standards: it might be desired.

For this life, you should not fear death, rather, you should "know and understand" that you will die at some moment in the future; and focus your whole energy not to enter hell, and go to the other alternative: that is heaven which rivers flow beneath it, and we live in it as immortal beings. Wishing "immortality" in this life, is a terrible wish, actually this wish is criticized in the Quran:

( Sura 2 Verse 96 )   And you will surely find them the most greedy of people for life - [even] more than those who associate others with Allah. One of them wishes that he could be granted life a thousand years, but it would not remove him in the least from the [coming] punishment that he should be granted life. And Allah is Seeing of what they do.

And this life is defined to be:

( Sura 75 Verse 20 )   Know that the life of this world is but amusement and diversion and adornment and boasting to one another and competition in increase of wealth and children - like the example of a rain whose [resulting] plant growth pleases the tillers; then it dries and you see it turned yellow; then it becomes [scattered] debris. And in the Hereafter is severe punishment and forgiveness from Allah and approval. And what is the worldly life except the enjoyment of delusion.

The most beautiful words  I ever read..The most honest description I ever read for this life..
If you wish to live this life forever, then I have serious doubts about your brain functionality, and I can totally say that you either love how it's not fair, or you simply missed so many of its faces.