So yes, I think that UKIP are fucking awful. And that is not anything personal and yes it's my opinion. I thought the whole purpose of this thread was to ask the opinion of others because you're open to alternative viewpoints, not so you can rant at people who disagree with you.

I'm voting out, being in Europe is like being in a relationship with several people who really don't like you.

Look at the song contest stats, none of them ever give us 12 points, we had fuck all points one year.

In that case, I think voting out of Europe is like telling those several people you're in a relationship with "Fuck off if I can't have it all my own way then why should I negotiate!!!!" throwing your toys out of the pram and going sitting in the corner swigging from a big bottle of vodka and ranting incoherently.

(May 1, 2016 at 3:47 am)Expired Wrote: Look at the song contest stats, none of them ever give us 12 points, we had fuck all points one year.

I'm actually at a loss what one should think about that kind of argument. Please tell me, you're not serious. I mean, here's hoping that this isn't the sharpest arrow in your quiver.

I think perhaps it's us overestimating people's intelligence -- not just the opinionated asswipes overestimating their own: I think the problem comes when we believe, silly us, that those claiming to want a rational and mature open-minded discussion actually want a rational and mature open-minded discussion -- when really they just want an opportunity to rant about their own opinions and cherry pick other people's.

(May 1, 2016 at 9:10 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: I think perhaps it's us overestimating people's intelligence

I'm not in the business of overestimating anything when it comes to the general population. I wouldn't call it intelligence though. I'd call it an overwhelming ignorance. Not thinking all the consequences through before coming to a decision. Sometimes because of a lack of information, sometimes because of the inability to process information.

Last week, when our very own rightwinger won the first round of presidential elections, people got asked why they voted for him. Some of the answers were - I shit you not - he looks nice, he's one of us, he comes from here.

Well speaking personally for myself -- I've had many needless arguments with people who took it personally merely that I disagreed with them whilst completely misunderstanding everything I said, purely because I didn't want to condescend them by realizing that they clearly didn't understand me.

(May 1, 2016 at 9:15 am)abaris Wrote: Sometimes because of a lack of information, sometimes because of the inability to process information.

I think it's both.

For me the former is ignorance and it comes in two kinds -- the one kind I think is just being unaware, naive, ignorant in the sense of not knowing the fact, unintentionally. The second kind I think is far worse -- willful ignorance, usually due to an agenda and/or a lack of curiosity.

For me the latter is unintelligence.

I think there's a difference between: A lack of experience when it comes to processing information, an unwillingness to process information, and a flat-out inability/ permanent difficulty. First is general ignorance/unawareness, second is obstinately willful ignorance, third is unintelligence.

You may or may not disagree, and the other thing is -- we might agree a lot internally but honestly feel like we disagree and express that externally due to the fact that a lot of what appears to be disagreements is often just semantics: And on the inside people agree. That's one of the things that interests me.

Someone can believe they agree and not agree, and someone can believe they disagree but agree -- that's why semantics and misunderstandings is important.

I think it's interesting to recognize sometimes "I think we actually agree on this point but it seems like we don't because we are expressing the same thing in different ways."

I think the problem is equivocation, veryyyyy often in arguments and debates. "Disagreement" can mean two people saying contradictory things that "disagree" with each other, or it can mean that the two people actually disagree with each other. It's possible to actually agree but say things that seemingly disagree due to a contradiction and misunderstanding, and it's possible to actually disagree but on the outside the two views expressed seem to go together.

I think it's very like how the word "say" can mean what you're trying to say but it can also mean what your words are saying. And what the words you say actually mean and what you intend them to mean are different, but the word "mean" can mean "I intended it to mean this" and it can also mean what the words themselves actually mean.

I think it's often funny how many times two people agree more than they realize or disagree more than they realize but they don't realize it lol.

I find this all very interesting but I'm sure you're already aware of it and it's not the topic of this debate so I'll shut up now lol.

(May 1, 2016 at 9:22 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: For me the former is ignorance and it comes in two kinds -- the one kind I think is just being unaware, naive, ignorant in the sense of not knowing the fact, unintentionally. The second kind I think is far worse -- willful ignorance, usually due to an agenda and/or a lack of curiosity.

For me the latter is unintelligence.

No, these people can be as smart as the next person. It's authority persons feeding them with their kind of opinionated bullshit and since it meets their precoceived notions, they gobble it up like manna from heaven. In many cases, they're rather young or simply lacking in education. That doesn't make them stupid or unintelligent. It just disables them from looking any further than what their gut feeling and fears tell them.

As far as the EU goes, if I'd followed my gut, I would long be in the camp of the exit. If I thought for a second, it would improve my life in any way, shape or form. But looking at the available information and what it would cost us to leave, I'm defending what I don't like in it's current form. It would be me, along with all the other common folks, paying the bills. And that's certainly not what I'm campaigning or striving for.

So I think this is just down to how we define "intelligence".

The problem I find with those who criticise those who go for their gut opinion on the matter is the fact that all these "facts" the "more knowledgeable" politically minded person knows are also known by other people who are equally knowlegeable but interpret those "facts" completely differently. The Argument From Erudition I call it "Well I've read up on it more than you have so I am more worth listening to", it's like a type of argument from authority. Many people are well-read on the matter but if everyone who read up on it and understood it agreed life wouldn't be this complicated.

The whole problem is this attitude of the person who believes that anyone who disagrees with them must just not understand them or that it's purely a matter of explanation -- hey, it's possible that the other person does understand and maybe you yourself don't , hey it's possible that you explained yourself perfectly well but the other person still disagrees, just because someone disagrees doesn't mean they don't understand.

I'm not going to spend my time getting educated on a politically matter rather than just go with my gut, when in my opinion this is more a matter of our own values and principles rather than trying to discover The Political Truth. I could educate myself throughally on politics but my politics would be biased by my own personal values and principles just like everyone else's is: It's not about learning "facts" because everyone interprets them differently. Our politics is just an outside reflection of how we view the world inside. Ultimately politics should be about philosophy, but sadly the reality is on the outside the actual politicians are disingenuous manipulative fuckwits and what their actual policies and philosophies on the matter is can be very different to what they express, sadly -- who knows what these politicians really think.

I like politics, but I can't stand politicians.