Funny SNL spoof (I may have posted before). Church of 'Neurotology':

No, God doesn't need our help He is independent of any need outside of himself. He however invites us to join in His work of redemption, if you were a Christian before you would have known this and not have to ask the question, but then you're just looking to stir the pot once again. There is no further need to explain my answer, it is total in it's truth.

GC

Oh, look, Rob! You caught one. Just as the forecast predicted. Logic fail.

(May 8, 2016 at 12:35 am)Godschild Wrote: No, God doesn't need our help He is independent of any need outside of himself. He however invites us to join in His work of redemption, if you were a Christian before you would have known this and not have to ask the question, but then you're just looking to stir the pot once again. There is no further need to explain my answer, it is total in it's truth.

GC

Okay, he doesn't need our help. So your actions on his behalf are unnecessary? He's just making you feel included?

Redemption of what? Why does he need to work to achieve anything? Can't he just announce it to be so?

(May 7, 2016 at 3:17 am)robvalue Wrote: This is a question for all the religious people who ever try to act on god's behalf, in a small or big way, for example:

-Trying to convince others that God is real / their religion is true

-Supporting changes of laws on religious grounds

-Mistreating someone citing religion as the reason (even killing them, in extreme cases)

The question is this:

Does God need your help doing whatever it is you're doing? To communicate? To govern as he sees fit? To reveal his existence? To demonstrate the validity of the true religion? For justice to be served?

If the answer is yes, then your God is pretty feeble. No offense, but you're just a human. If he needs your help, he's more comparable to us than to a deity.

If the answer is no, then why are you acting on his behalf? Do you know better than God how he wants things done? Can he not cope on his own? Does he need protecting? Do things need to be a certain way before he can continue with his "plan"?

I suggest that the greatest act of faith and confidence in God is to leave all of that up to him, and to stop acting like he needs armies of people to do his bidding. Every action taken on his behalf betrays a lack of faith, and a frustration with his inaction. It also reveals an arrogance that you know better than God what should be done.

Job had a beautiful answer to the question that can be repeated every time the issue pops up.

Job 13:6-12 (MSG) = “Listen now while I make my case,
    consider my side of things for a change.
Or are you going to keep on lying ‘to do God a service’?
    to make up stories ‘to get him off the hook’?
Why do you always take his side?
    Do you think he needs a lawyer to defend himself?
How would you fare if you were in the dock?
    Your lies might convince a jury—but would they
        convince God?
He’d reprimand you on the spot
    if he detected a bias in your witness.
Doesn’t his splendor put you in awe?
    Aren’t you afraid to speak cheap lies before him?
Your wise sayings are knickknack wisdom,
    good for nothing but gathering dust."

(May 8, 2016 at 12:43 am)Mamacita Wrote: Oh, look, Rob! You caught one. Just as the forecast predicted. Logic fail.

I'll give him credit at least for a straight answer! That's more than I generally expect from my questions, even if the following rationalisation doesn't make sense.

Another thought:

It's often said by theists that we cannot understand god's plan. He's incredibly wise, and his plan is intricate beyond our primitive human brains.

So... why get involved at all? If we have such a terrible understanding of what's meant to be happening, what's the point? If we do something in line with god's plan, then it was unecessary (unless the theist admits God does actually need our help). If it isn't in line with God's plan, then God has to come sweep up after us, to correct the plan. Otherwise, what we do makes no impact at all; or else God is happy with any outcome.

If I was a builder for example, and I turned up to a construction site, and I'd only been given an extremely vague idea of what the plans were... I wouldn't start chucking bricks around, putting them wherever seems like a good idea to me. I'm just as likely to create more harm than good.

The whole idea of a plan is silly, really. It's a human concept, a way of working out a strategy to achieve a goal. And we use it because there are ways we could fail to achieve the goal. If we literally couldn't fail to achieve it, in whatever short time period we spent doing it, we wouldn't need a plan. We'd just do it.

Why does God need a plan, if presumably he cannot fail? Why does he need time (from our perspective at least) to pass in order to achieve the goal? These appear to be limitations on his power, or else he's just screwing around.

There is no fail exit for God because he is tri-omni.
So any shit we do, I mean God does, was obviously part of the plan we can never understand!

(May 8, 2016 at 3:50 am)robvalue Wrote:

(May 8, 2016 at 12:35 am)Godschild Wrote: No, God doesn't need our help He is independent of any need outside of himself. He however invites us to join in His work of redemption, if you were a Christian before you would have known this and not have to ask the question, but then you're just looking to stir the pot once again. There is no further need to explain my answer, it is total in it's truth.

GC

Okay, he doesn't need our help.

Correct, good to see you understand.

rob Wrote:So your actions on his behalf are unnecessary?

Wrong, God finds then necessary in the relationship we have with Him.

rob Wrote:He's just making you feel included?

Wrong, He wants us included because we live in a relationship with Him.

rob Wrote:Redemption of what?

What! I thought you claimed to be a Christian at one time, guess you were wrong. Redemption from sin to an everlasting life with God.

rob Wrote:Why does he need to work to achieve anything?

Ask Him, I would think God like to work, I know I do, guess that's one part of his image I was created with.

rob Wrote:Can't he just announce it to be so?

He did with the creation on the first day, you want accept that was done, so why ask the question you want accept the answer to. Do you want to be redeemed by force?

GC[/quote]

Quote:An infinite God ought to be able to protect himself, without going in partnership with State Legislatures. Certainly he ought not so to act that laws become necessary to keep him from being laughed at. No one thinks of protecting Shakespeare from ridicule, by the threat of fine and imprisonment.
-- Robert Green Ingersoll

God is a pussy it seems.