(May 17, 2016 at 1:49 pm)Brian37 Wrote: If those 4 noble truths were a requirement to value compassion and preventing harm to others then explain to me how this cat protected a kid without having to read that list of code?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBW5dfRoG7Q

Again, they're no requirement for such. The four truths simply reference human suffering.

Compassion as well as hatred is within all and expressed (to varying degrees) from all of us.

(May 17, 2016 at 1:47 pm)quip Wrote:

(May 17, 2016 at 1:44 pm)Brian37 Wrote: So the fuck what........ You gave the ghost away with "man made institutions" BINGO

You think those "for noble truths" are special? Bullshit. Do you really need a list of code to figure out it is not nice to steal from people or physically harm them? How much comparative religion studies have you done? You would stupidly argue that no other religion in the world has similar ideas of motifs of kindness and peace? AGAIN even just those 4 noble truths were a cure, then why does Asia and the Orient have it's own history of violence? Not even that list is a cure. AND AGAIN, because, like you said, IT IS MAN  MADE, and again, all religions are man made and all can point to the ideas of wanting peace and charity. 

THAT says to me, and I say this to ALL religions worldwide, that our species morality is in our evolution not our labels.

What makes you believe (that I believe) that the four noble truths are "special"?

They're nothing of the sort.  ( P.S. Why are you so angry?)

Knock it off, my word choice makes me blunt, not angry. If you don't believe it, why did you bring it up? Still does not change that other people do and do get upset when you tell them their religion isn't special, just because you wouldn't get violent, or demand political correctness like even liberals of all labels do, doesn't mean others dont. THEY DO,

Now, I am going to lay it all on the line and make it clear. Religion wont go away, nobody is going to force any religion out of existence, to attempt that one would become a monster. But you are playing word games with me in a very poor attempt to allow Buddhism to avoid scrutiny, no religion, not even atheists should be setting up taboos. Our species only owes each other non violence, but don't claim anyone or don't even imply that Buddhism should get a pass. I treat every religion the same and I don't even give fellow atheists a pass.

The point is religion spends way too much time protecting itself and not enough time understanding we are all the same species. You merely have an outsiders view of Buddhism, the insiders of all the competing sects have the same narrow view of their corner of the planet most people of most religions have.

(May 17, 2016 at 1:34 pm)quip Wrote:

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(May 17, 2016 at 1:28 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Is it not buddhist dogma that;


Disappointingly, you seem to think that your dogma is not dogma because it's not the same as their dogma.

Far from being disappointing as the only "dogma" committing me to (or from) Buddhism....is me.

So the man who told me to educate myself about dogma, as a rebuttal to the statement that there was a buddhist dogma......didn't know what dogma was?  Typical.

I'm glad to hear that no one has forced you to accept their dogma, that you have done so all on your own.  This is hardly unique to buddhism.  Many muslims and christians have -also- decided to swallow their faiths dogmas whole, themselves.  You all have your reasons, I'm sure.

(May 17, 2016 at 1:58 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(May 17, 2016 at 1:47 pm)quip Wrote: What makes you believe (that I believe) that the four noble truths are "special"?

They're nothing of the sort.  ( P.S. Why are you so angry?)

Knock it off, my word choice makes me blunt, not angry. If you don't believe it, why did you bring it up? Still does not change that other people do and do get upset when you tell them their religion isn't special, just because you wouldn't get violent, or demand political correctness like even liberals of all labels do, doesn't mean others dont. THEY DO,

Now, I am going to lay it all on the line and make it clear. Religion wont go away, nobody is going to force any religion out of existence, to attempt that one would become a monster. But you are playing word games with me in a very poor attempt to allow Buddhism to avoid scrutiny, no religion, not even atheists should be setting up taboos. Our species only owes each other non violence, but don't claim anyone or don't even imply that Buddhism should get a pass. I treat every religion the same and I don't even give fellow atheists a pass.

The point is religion spends way too much time protecting itself and not enough time understanding we are all the same species. You merely have an outsiders view of Buddhism, the insiders of all the competing sects have the same narrow view of their corner of the planet most people of most religions have.

I'm certainly not giving Buddhism (writ large) any passes. People are people; politics is politics, while the admixture of religion and politics have always made for dangerous bedfellows. I'm simply following a personal philosophy to which my humble sphere of influence cannot control what's happening in Tibet or wherever.  Simply take Buddhism or leave it...some days I view it as a worthless bag of horse-shit, though I generally come back to it simply because when you calm the waters; clear out the useless white-noise the Buddha made some salient philosophical and psychological observations.

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(May 17, 2016 at 2:05 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(May 17, 2016 at 1:34 pm)quip Wrote:

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Far from being disappointing as the only "dogma" committing me to (or from) Buddhism....is me.

So the man who told me to educate myself about dogma, as a rebuttal to the statement that there was a buddhist dogma......didn't know what dogma was?  Typical.

I'm glad to hear that no one has forced you to accept their dogma, that you have done so all on your own.  This is hardly unique to buddhism.  Many muslims and christians have -also- decided to swallow their faiths dogmas whole, themselves.  You all have your reasons, I'm sure.

Feel free to generalize....though I'll point out that there's no dogmatic appeal to punishable apostasy regarding Buddhism.

Buddhism doesn't have a hell or a command regarding apostates....so what? 'Dogma' isn't just about those two things.. Are there any statements that Buddhism holds as true?

(May 17, 2016 at 2:12 pm)quip Wrote: Feel free to generalize....though I'll point out that there's no dogmatic appeal to punishable apostasy regarding Buddhism.

Different things motivate different people.  What will happen to me if I don't follow buddhist witch doctors advice?  Will I not be cured of the phantom condition which I'm supposed to free myself from? All this talk of islam, but who cares? Neither you nor I are muslims....I guess we're just trying to establish that buddhist dogma is better, somehow, than islamic dogma.

I disagree.

(May 17, 2016 at 2:56 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(May 17, 2016 at 2:12 pm)quip Wrote: Feel free to generalize....though I'll point out that there's no dogmatic appeal to punishable apostasy regarding Buddhism.

Different things motivate different people.  What will happen to me if I don't follow buddhist witch doctors advice?  Will I not be cured of the phantom condition which I'm supposed to free myself from?  All this talk of islam, but who cares?  Neither you nor I are muslims....I guess we're just trying to establish that buddhist dogma is better, somehow, than islamic dogma.  

I disagree.

So it shall be.

It's been my experience that actual Buddhists are some of the most dogmatic people I encounter. Buddhism doesn't end at the four noble truths, there is a whole metaphysics to the religion concerned with becoming and ontology and Samsara. You're just another Buddhist spin doctor claiming that Buddhism isn't a religion just like the others.

(May 17, 2016 at 3:22 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: It's been my experience that actual Buddhists are some of the most dogmatic people I encounter.  Buddhism doesn't end at the four noble truths, there is a whole metaphysics to the religion concerned with becoming and ontology and Samsara.  You're just another Buddhist spin doctor claiming that Buddhism isn't a religion just like the others.

Sorry you feel that way. Seems you've encountered some less than charitable Buddhists or perhaps the anecdotes spin their own tale.

(May 17, 2016 at 10:38 pm)quip Wrote:

(May 17, 2016 at 3:22 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: It's been my experience that actual Buddhists are some of the most dogmatic people I encounter.  Buddhism doesn't end at the four noble truths, there is a whole metaphysics to the religion concerned with becoming and ontology and Samsara.  You're just another Buddhist spin doctor claiming that Buddhism isn't a religion just like the others.

Sorry you feel that way. Seems you've encountered some less than charitable Buddhists or perhaps the anecdotes spin their own tale.

Or, far more likely, Jor has a reality based view of buddhism. It is as bad as the western religions, has as bloody a history, is as intolerant of the other, is as likely protect child rapists in order from the law, and as willing to incite genocide (google Rohingya for yourself) as any of the abrahamic faiths.

Just because the religion you profess was taken up by a bunch of hippies on the principle of "far away wisdom is always truer and better" and shorn of its violence, misogyny and many other bad traits doesn't give it a free pass, and you're an idiot for drinking the Kool-Aid.