(June 24, 2016 at 10:09 am)Kingpin Wrote: I honestly was quite surprised this morning to see Brexit succeed.  My immediate thoughts were what if this was a big "FU" to the EU policy and knowing the trade power the UK has and leaving the EU, they could vote to exit and force the EU to make drastic regulation changes in the negotiation process and then not invoke Article 50.  Basically likening it to a "strike" in a Union.  We aren't going to work until we get what we want.

Reading more I'm not so sure.  If this legally happens, there will indeed be immediate localized economic impact and a residual global impact in the years to follow.  If the UK handles this departure well, I'm sure it will lead to more departures of the other EU members.  Going to be watching this unfold intently, but this could spurn a massive change in our world.

Yeah, my knowledge of macroeconomics is extremely limited, and I'm hearing contradictory things from the experts depending on what side they're supporting.  I suppose we'll have to watch it unfold.

(June 24, 2016 at 10:10 am)madog Wrote:

(June 24, 2016 at 10:04 am)Kingpin Wrote: Ummm, two things....

1.  Tiberius is NOT Christian or religious by any means.  He's a self described atheist.
2.  How does disagreeing with you turn this in to a religious discussion?

Bring a new point to a Christian they don't take time to consider the issue .... But the name calling was started by Tiberius.

And you are validated in reciprocating?  How old are we?  You are labeling and stereotyping my friend.  Let me know when you grow up and we will invite you to the adult table for a conversation.

(June 24, 2016 at 10:09 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote:

(June 24, 2016 at 10:07 am)madog Wrote: No it is the time that was taken to consider the issue .... discussion that promotes something is advertisement 

And if you weren't so busy trying to prove a point you would have noted it was just the principle and not the fact it was vaping  

Er...no.  Commercial promotion is just flatly not the same as a discussion between people.

(d) any form of public or private contribution to any event, activity or individual person with the aim or direct or
indirect effect of promoting electronic cigarettes and refill containers and involving or taking place in several Member
States or otherwise having cross-border effects is prohibited;

(June 24, 2016 at 10:12 am)madog Wrote:

(June 24, 2016 at 10:09 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Er...no.  Commercial promotion is just flatly not the same as a discussion between people.

(d) any form of public or private contribution to any event, activity or individual person with the aim or direct or
indirect effect of promoting electronic cigarettes and refill containers and involving or taking place in several Member
States or otherwise having cross-border effects is prohibited;

I don't see how this is that hard to understand.

Well back to the matter at hand;
Foreign currency traders who bet on a remain vote are panicking and the £ fell. Not unexpected and those currency traders who had a better idea of what was happening will be making a fortune, I think the market made up 30% of the loss by the time NY started trading. I expect that volatility to continue through the weekend but should sort itself out next week.
The bigger problem will be the fate of the Euro, The Leave vote ultimately has to be Merkel's responsibility, as is the state of European finances more generally though I don't expect her to acknowledge her role in this any more than that of Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal or Ireland.
Frankly if the EU is to survive Merkel has to fall.
For us in Britain we have to start engaging with the world again.
Hopefully this means UKIP and Farage shuffle into the shadows for lack of an actual reason for existence.

(June 24, 2016 at 10:09 am)Kingpin Wrote: I honestly was quite surprised this morning to see Brexit succeed.  My immediate thoughts were what if this was a big "FU" to the EU policy and knowing the trade power the UK has and leaving the EU, they could vote to exit and force the EU to make drastic regulation changes in the negotiation process and then not invoke Article 50.  Basically likening it to a "strike" in a Union.  We aren't going to work until we get what we want.

Reading more I'm not so sure.  If this legally happens, there will indeed be immediate localized economic impact and a residual global impact in the years to follow.  If the UK handles this departure well, I'm sure it will lead to more departures of the other EU members.  Going to be watching this unfold intently, but this could spurn a massive change in our world.

All eyes will be on the UK to see how it fares outside of the EU. If it looks like it is doing OK then the countries at the brunt of the austerity drive will start to re-evaluate their membership.

The EU on the other hand had already decided that even if the UK were to stay in that this was a wake-up call to change. So how they adapt to this situation will also be important.

The EU will be keen to show that leaving is not in the interests of any country so they'll play hardball with Britain.

If Scotland wins an Indy Ref then they'll be fast tracked back into the EU, or stay in the EU if they never leave it in the first place. Then all eyes will be on Scotland and the rest of Britain to see which decision was the best. There could even be favourable concessions to Scotland.

Just a plea though to the other Europeans on this forum. Please don't crow if Britain tries to get back into the EU when the baby boomers die off. The younger generations were forced out against their will. They will also be bearing the brunt of leaving the EU.

I could put these into context, but some of the comments that appear to be coming from ignorance I will not even try


“The justification for considering advertising a protected form of speech is that an individual
(consumer) has got the right to receive information helping him or her to make an informed choice,
regardless of whether this information concerns a political party or candidate s/he should vote for
or the characteristics of a product s/he is planning on to buy” Jayawickrama (supra note 26), p.
677
16


Commission ECHR

“On another occasion the Commission expressed more clearly the view that commercial
speech was protected by the Convention, noting that it had “earlier expressed the
opinion that commercial advertisements and promotional campaigns [were] as such
protected by Article 10 § 1” Ingemar liljenberg v. Sweden5

Court ECHR

“Neither the financial element nor the competitionrelated
promotional statements are
excluded from the ambit of protection of Art. 10 ECHR.” B arthold v Germany 18

Court ECHR

“The profit­making purpose is considered irrelevant” Casado Coca v Spain 17


Court ECHR

“The Court ECHR noted that it does not distinguish between various forms of
expression. Consequently all expression, whatever its content, falls within the scope of
Article 10 ECHR. The key question is therefore the scrutiny of the justification for
interference under Art. 10 (2) ECHR” Munro , The Value of Commercial Speech, (2003) 3
Cambridge Law Journal , 138.

Court ECHR

“Where there has been an interference in the exercise of the rights and freedoms
guaranteed in paragraph 1 of Article 10, the supervision must be strict, because of the
importance of the rights in question; the importance of these rights has been stressed by
the Court many times. The necessity for restricting them must be convincingly
established.” Autronic AG v. Switzerland6

Court ECHR:
“In exercising its power of review, the Court assesses the proportionality of a restriction
on freedom of expression to the aim pursued. Any interference disproportionate to the
legitimate aim pursued will not be deemed “necessary in a democratic society” and will
thus contravene Article 10 of the Convention." Autronic AG v.Switzerland15

(June 24, 2016 at 9:59 am)madog Wrote: The amount of time you took to consider this shows your opinion was made prior to any evidence .... Advertising includes anything that promotes, but that would be lost on the likes of the Christian minded 

Ok, so firstly I'm not a Christian.

Secondly, I read your entire post, however as soon as I saw those two words I knew in my gut that you were being facetious. Reading the rest of the post just confirmed my feelings.

Thirdly, whilst "advertising" might include anything that promotes, that's not what the wording of the law states. It uses the phrase "commercial communications", which is a much narrower definition. If the communication is designed to make a commercial sale, it's banned. If it's just discussing the product, or vaping in general, it's not covered.

(June 24, 2016 at 10:27 am)Tiberius Wrote:

(June 24, 2016 at 9:59 am)madog Wrote: The amount of time you took to consider this shows your opinion was made prior to any evidence .... Advertising includes anything that promotes, but that would be lost on the likes of the Christian minded 

Ok, so firstly I'm not a Christian.

Secondly, I read your entire post, however as soon as I saw those two words I knew in my gut that you were being facetious. Reading the rest of the post just confirmed my feelings.

Thirdly, whilst "advertising" might include anything that promotes, that's not what the wording of the law states. It uses the phrase "commercial communications", which is a much narrower definition. If the communication is designed to make a commercial sale, it's banned. If it's just discussing the product, or vaping in general, it's not covered.

That's what I thought.  Like, you can't put up an ad on the side of a bus advertising your dealer's cocaine, but of course you can still discuss it and even be in favor of its use/legalization.

FYI, here is the UK government page on the law you quoted: https://www.gov.uk/government/publicatio...t-complete

It's literally titled "restrictions on advertising electronic cigarettes", i.e. not discussions.

They even explain this in detail:

Quote:From 20 May 2016, across the EU, e-cigarettes and re-fill containers can’t be advertised or promoted, directly or indirectly:

on TV or on-demand TV
on radio
through information society services (this includes for example internet advertising and commercial e-mail)
in certain printed publications – newspapers, magazines, periodicals and similar publications

The Article also requires us to prohibit:

sponsorship of television and radio programmes which promotes electronic cigarettes
product placement of electronic cigarettes
sponsorship of activities or individuals that involve or take place in 2 or more EEA states or otherwise have cross border effects

These restrictions are more limited than those which apply to tobacco advertising, where all forms of advertising and sponsorship by tobacco companies are prohibited.

Stop your fear-mongering!!!

Oh, and just in case you wanted more proof you're wrong, scroll down further and you get this:

Quote:Blogs/tweets/independently compiled, non paid for reviews - Permitted
E-cigarette trade press and trade to trade communication - Permitted
Cinema, fax, outdoor posters, posters on sides of buses (not travelling outside of the UK), leaflets, and direct hard copy mail - Permitted