(June 24, 2016 at 11:17 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(June 24, 2016 at 11:13 am)Kingpin Wrote: I wouldn't say I'm optimistic but I would prefer difficult decisions be left to the hands of the electorate and we educate ourselves.  Honestly neither (Referendum with fear campaigning, elected representative decision) is appealing but at least with a referendum vote we can blame ourselves.  To quote Shakespeare, "All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players."

That sounds good, on paper...
But are you sure you want important decisions in the hands of the average person?
Do you know how efficient advertising is on the average person?
Whichever side pours more money in a campaign tends to win.

Personally I'd welcome severe restrictions on freedom of speech where political speech is concerned.  I'd have a hard time articulating exactly what they should look like but I picture something like what the Women's League of Voters contributes.  Or perhaps require that every flyer or media add be fact checked and bear the results, so that everyone knows immediately what is a lie.  

So you might not want to elect me emperor of the world.  Once I've capped your speech I'm definitely coming for you guns.

(June 24, 2016 at 11:13 am)Kingpin Wrote: I wouldn't say I'm optimistic but I would prefer difficult decisions be left to the hands of the electorate and we educate ourselves.

In an ideal world, yes. In a real world, no. There's a tremendous amount of fear and hate mongering involved these days. People are afraid for different reasons and are easy prey for the ones selling simplistic solutions snake oil. Fear is probably the best selling article of this day and age. Serious information can't compete with the shrill sounds of emotional makebelief.

(June 24, 2016 at 11:17 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(June 24, 2016 at 11:13 am)Kingpin Wrote: I wouldn't say I'm optimistic but I would prefer difficult decisions be left to the hands of the electorate and we educate ourselves.  Honestly neither (Referendum with fear campaigning, elected representative decision) is appealing but at least with a referendum vote we can blame ourselves.  To quote Shakespeare, "All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players."

That sounds good, on paper...
But are you sure you want important decisions in the hands of the average person?
Do you know how efficient advertising is on the average person?
Whichever side pours more money in a campaign tends to win.

Well it's either that or we bitch about the representative we elected because they aren't "representing" the majority opinion.  U.S Voter turnout and demographics show that mostly 40+ and well educated folks represent the majority of voters.  http://www.electproject.org/home/voter-t...mographics

Like I said the system has its flaws and both situations have pros/cons but I suppose it really comes down to the issue being considered.

(June 24, 2016 at 8:57 am)madog Wrote:

(June 24, 2016 at 8:46 am)Constable Dorfl Wrote: Could you show me any actual evidence for that? Because the only research I've seen was a study done on twenty smokers which was so badly designed as to have no control group to work a baseline off of.

Now, vaping will probably end up being less damaging than smoking, but the research on it is so bad we cannot say for certain.

This isn't really the issue, and would go off topic, but I'll give an example https://www.gov.uk/government/news/e-cig...ark-review

From what you've given, the "findings" are based of self reporting surveys and studies done on small groups (the largest single group was 43 people) with no controls and no longitudinal data (i.e. the studies lasted a couple of weeks and no more). Frankly when findings are made of stuff this sketchy, they should be discarded.

Anyway to get back to the substance of the matter, why do you say the EU is a dictatorship when it is unwilling to listen to bad science?

(June 24, 2016 at 11:14 am)Tiberius Wrote: Now that Cameron has resigned, what are the odds that Boris Johnson will be the new leader of the Conservative party and therefore Prime Minister? I've predicted that for several years now, but I never thought it would happen in this way. Boris is generally well-liked by his party, and he's just won a major political victory.

Hmm... I don't know. I think The Jim Henson Company might want him back at some point. They'll need a stunt double for Trump... 

(June 24, 2016 at 11:26 am)Kingpin Wrote: Like I said the system has its flaws and both situations have pros/cons but I suppose it really comes down to the issue being considered.

I can go that far.  Certainly I concede our system of representative government is also deeply flawed.  There has got to be a way to get the money out of politics.  And capping political speech would be a tough pill but one I'd be willing to swallow.

(June 24, 2016 at 4:13 am)Rhythm Wrote:

(June 24, 2016 at 4:02 am)Bella Morte Wrote: Scottish voters will shit themselves at the last minute and vote to remain if there is one. And if they get independence which is unlikely, a few years down the line the SNP scum will be begging to get back into the UK.

Why?  A few years down the line they'll be in the EU and Britain (no more UK, sadface) will still be trying to recover from it's decision today.

Quote:I will not be moving from my homeland in the event of an Independence vote. And I will always identify as British even in an "independent" Scotland.

Dirty foreigner it is, then?

Quote:Scotland will always be British in my view. I quite fancy a civil war in Scotland with the British areas trying to break away and re-join the Union. Sorta like the Troubles, a wee bit. How fun!

You fancy wars in a way that leaves me certain that you've never seen one. 

In a way that leaves me baffled she isn't murican...

(June 24, 2016 at 11:14 am)Tiberius Wrote: Now that Cameron has resigned, what are the odds that Boris Johnson will be the new leader of the Conservative party and therefore Prime Minister? I've predicted that for several years now, but I never thought it would happen in this way. Boris is generally well-liked by his party, and he's just won a major political victory.

For that matter what are the odds that Scotland, N. Ireland and Wales will bail on Britain?

(June 24, 2016 at 11:37 am)Losty Wrote: In a way that leaves me baffled she isn't murican...

I don't really know what to say to that.

Fuck Britain in the ass with a steel dildo: I want the United Kingdom back!