(June 27, 2016 at 11:34 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: For starters it looks to me like the EU is rather anti-TTIP? Wouldn't having the UK on their side be a good thing if they're suspicious of the TTIP and if the TTIP really is  The Big Bad Wolf Conspiring To Get Us that some believe it is?

In this case I don't think, it would make any difference if the UK is in or out. For the rest of Europe, I mean. For the UK it means to be on it's own to negotiate their own deal, if they so desire.

There are peaks and valleys when it comes to quality of life. I just want the valleys to be raised, and the lower the valley the more urgently it needs to be raised.

And the economy is relevant to quality of life.

I just don't want the poor to get poorer and I certainly don't want the poorest to get poorer. It would also be nice if the almost coping started coping... but that's a luxury in this world.

I have two primary questions to Brexiters: 1. This short-term clusterfuck of the economy... where exactly is the rationale that this is good for us long-term? 2. Why exactly are short-term bad results seen as no big deal when long-term bad results are more hard to predict and all things being equal short-term bad= probably long term bad?

(June 27, 2016 at 11:37 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: Primarily because we still have to trade with the EU and the EU has a lot of powerful influence and now we're not going to be part of it that makes everything more difficult. Secondarily because our economy is going downhill already as the majority of economic experts predicted it would if we left the EU: And I don't know of any evidence why this short-term economic loss will somehow lead to long-term economic gain.

We will continue to trade with the EU, it is in their interests as much as ours.

We have just left the EU, it didn't take Nostradamus to figure out that shares, currency and bond markets would drop dramatically.  As I said, come back to me in.....fuck it, come back to me in one year.  The FTSE will be back up around 6,300 as it was before the referendum.

(June 27, 2016 at 11:45 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: There are peaks and valleys when it comes to quality of life. I just want the valleys to be raised, and the lower the valley the more urgently it needs to be raised.

And the economy is relevant to quality of life.

I just don't want the poor to get poorer and I certainly don't want the poorest to get poorer. It would also be nice if the almost coping started coping... but that's a luxury in this world.

I have two primary questions to Brexiters: 1. This short-term clusterfuck of the economy... where exactly is the rationale that this is good for us long-term? 2. Why exactly are short-term bad results seen as no big deal when long-term bad results are more hard to predict and all things being equal short-term bad= probably long term bad?

I'd suggest that the EU has had a fairly dodgy history in making the poor any richer.

(June 27, 2016 at 11:35 am)SofaKingHigh Wrote:

(June 27, 2016 at 11:34 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: That doesn't mean we couldn't have been finer.

OK, let's turn this around, as I'm interested.....why are you so staunchly pro-EU?

For myself I live in Scotland when I live in the UK and Westminster doesn't give a shit about Scotland. I don't trust the Tories as far as I could throw them. I also know that they have been trying to remove all worker's rights in order to stimulate the economy, and it was the EU that was stopping them. Which is why they were trying to renegotiate the deal with the EU.

I personally need to be able to look for work anywhere in Europe. My house is actually in Germany because I can't afford to buy in the UK and years ago I realised that there was no viable future for me in the UK. Not one with any job security, pension or house. Things haven't been ideal for me in Germany either but it's only the language that is holding me back.

(June 27, 2016 at 11:48 am)Mathilda Wrote:

(June 27, 2016 at 11:35 am)SofaKingHigh Wrote: OK, let's turn this around, as I'm interested.....why are you so staunchly pro-EU?

For myself I live in Scotland when I live in the UK and Westminster doesn't give a shit about Scotland. I don't trust the Tories as far as I could throw them. I also know that they have been trying to remove all worker's rights in order to stimulate the economy, and it was the EU that was stopping them. Which is why they were trying to renegotiate the deal with the EU.

I personally need to be able to look for work anywhere in Europe. My house is actually in Germany because I can't afford to buy in the UK and years ago I realised that there was no viable future for me in the UK. Not one with any job security, pension or house. Things haven't been ideal for me in Germany either but it's only the language that is holding me back.

Fair enough, we all vote for our own reasons.

Where in Germany are you?  I was born in Munster and have lived in a few different places.

(June 27, 2016 at 11:50 am)SofaKingHigh Wrote: Where in Germany are you?  I was born in Munster and have lived in a few different places.

Military family?

(June 27, 2016 at 11:55 am)abaris Wrote:

(June 27, 2016 at 11:50 am)SofaKingHigh Wrote: Where in Germany are you?  I was born in Munster and have lived in a few different places.

Military family?

Exactly, Dad was in the British army.....sent me all over.

(June 27, 2016 at 11:46 am)SofaKingHigh Wrote: We will continue to trade with the EU, it is in their interests as much as ours.

1. Wouldn't our trading with the EU be more effective and influence within the EU be greater if we stayed within it? 2. Doesn't not being part of a union we are still going to be trading with decrease our freedom rather than increase it?

Quote:We have just left the EU, it didn't take Nostradamus to figure out that shares, currency and bond markets would drop dramatically. 

2. Isn't a buttload of categorically compelling evidence that that will somehow be better for us in the long-term required for that to ever be a good thing?

Quote:As I said, come back to me in.....fuck it, come back to me in one year.  The FTSE will be back up around 6,300 as it was before the referendum.

3.But where is the evidence that in a year we will be better off economically than if we stayed in the EU?

4. All things being equal isn't the evidence that our economy is worse off not just in the short-term but in the long-term?

5.A. Isn't the short-term negative effects on the economy and the predictions based on that a sign that this is going to be bad for the economy long term too? 5.B. Where is the evidence that it's going to get better? 5.C. Where is the evidence that it is going to not just get better but get better than it could have been if the economy didn't go downhill like this?

6.A. If I lose £100 and I say "Come back in two weeks and I will have £200. I'll be fine" isn't that a rather weak argument for the loss of £100 being a good thing if I give no evidence that I couldn't have £300 instead of £200 if I hadn't lost the £200? 6. B. Surely I would need some evidence that if I hadn't lost the £100 I would somehow gain far less than £200 two weeks later?

So Fucking High Wrote:The FTSE will be back up around 6,300 as it was before the referendum.

If the FTSE goes down and then goes back up to where it was isn't that worse than if it simply hadn't gone down?