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RE: Texas looks to follow UK's example
June 26, 2016 at 6:30 am
(June 26, 2016 at 6:21 am)Mathilda Wrote: (June 26, 2016 at 5:50 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Maybe in the future secession won't start a bloody civil war. But the Federal government has both asserted that power and enforced it by arms, and that is the reality on the ground any secessionsists must face. And when push comes to shove, it won't happen.
Ultima ratio regis, and all that.
I disagree. Not that Texas has a chance of independence, but that it must necessarily end in a war. Sure that has been the case in the past but it's not the case in modern history. We live in an age of mass media and social media. Try to imagine a world in which the US army enforced martial law in Texas because the local government under a democratic mandate from the people decided to stop paying taxes to the US and declared independence. Think about the quagmire that was Iraq. Think about the standing of the US on the international stage if it came to that.
I don't see that concern over international standing prevented us from instigating an illegal invasion of Iraq and following it up with years of military occupation. Indeed, we rather spited world opinion in that affair, wouldn't you agree?
And as many folks here on this forum have already shown, sympathies in America would probably not redound to the benefit of rebel Texas.
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RE: Texas looks to follow UK's example
June 26, 2016 at 6:31 am
(June 26, 2016 at 6:19 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Knowing your historical bent, I know there's no ugliness behind your question.
No, I just always wondered why the secession was considered treason in 1861. That, of course, doesn't mean I feel sympathy for the ones wanting to keep their slaves, among other things that led up to it. It always seemed odd to me, given how many individual rights the states actually have, that there was no provision for leaving, after a colony joined.
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RE: Texas looks to follow UK's example
June 26, 2016 at 6:39 am
(June 26, 2016 at 6:30 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I don't see that concern over international standing prevented us from instigating an illegal invasion of Iraq and following it up with years of military occupation. Indeed, we rather spited world opinion in that affair, wouldn't you agree?
And as many folks here on this forum have already shown, sympathies in America would probably not redound to the benefit of rebel Texas.
I'll admit that I'm speaking from the perspective of a European and that things might be different in America. It's all a moot point anyway.
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RE: Texas looks to follow UK's example
June 26, 2016 at 6:43 am
(June 26, 2016 at 6:31 am)abaris Wrote: (June 26, 2016 at 6:19 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Knowing your historical bent, I know there's no ugliness behind your question.
No, I just always wondered why the secession was considered treason in 1861. That, of course, doesn't mean I feel sympathy for the ones wanting to keep their slaves, among other things that led up to it. It always seemed odd to me, given how many individual rights the states actually have, that there was no provision for leaving, after a colony joined.
That was a big argument in the years leading up to the Civil War, whether a state had that right under the Tenth Amendment. Of course, the players on either side had their own justifications for their own views.
It wasn't considered treason by many folks, who held their local way of life -- e.g., a slave economy -- to be more meaningful than being part of the Union. It's my understanding, and I may well be wrong, that the Framers of the Constitution put off the question of binding membership in the Union vs secession in order to seal a speedier compact in the wake of the failure of the Articles of Confederation.
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RE: Texas looks to follow UK's example
June 26, 2016 at 7:08 am
I don't think there's been a day Texas hasn't wanted independence since they became part of the Union. No news here
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RE: Texas looks to follow UK's example
June 27, 2016 at 3:39 am
(June 26, 2016 at 7:08 am)Aegon Wrote: I don't think there's been a day Texas hasn't wanted independence since they became part of the Union. No news here
Well, the ten years of independent nationhood prior to Unioninzing certainly is trumpeted here as a matter of pride; we're unique aomg the states in that respect, and Texans with a little historical knowledge are pretty damned loud about reminding those who aren't -- so it's a meme that gets handed down.
Most of us understand that it ain't 1843 any more, and going it alone isn't a viable option. The media, on the other hand, is happy to hand a bullhorn to the loudmouths, no matter their distinct minority.
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RE: Texas looks to follow UK's example
June 27, 2016 at 4:15 am
(June 27, 2016 at 3:39 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Most of us understand that it ain't 1843 any more, and going it alone isn't a viable option. The media, on the other hand, is happy to hand a bullhorn to the loudmouths, no matter their distinct minority.
Which is pretty much the European situation now. As far as tabloids are concerned, anyway. Anything for some juicy story that riles up the masses.
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RE: Texas looks to follow UK's example
June 27, 2016 at 2:33 pm
(June 27, 2016 at 4:15 am)abaris Wrote: (June 27, 2016 at 3:39 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Most of us understand that it ain't 1843 any more, and going it alone isn't a viable option. The media, on the other hand, is happy to hand a bullhorn to the loudmouths, no matter their distinct minority.
Which is pretty much the European situation now. As far as tabloids are concerned, anyway. Anything for some juicy story that riles up the masses.
'Twas ever thus.
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RE: Texas looks to follow UK's example
June 27, 2016 at 3:12 pm
(This post was last modified: June 27, 2016 at 3:14 pm by mlmooney89.)
I haven't read all of the convo but really Texas threatening to leave the Union is such old news. I mean seriously my fellow Texans are ALWAYS talking about it, it is almost a comical joke at this point. We have very large heads and egos because we were our own country for a whopping ten years. I will admit to being Texan over American and love my state more than my country but this is a joke. We know we can't secede and that having our own country did NOT work out. Our money was failing, our people were losing hope in everything, and joining the union is what saved us. We aren't so stupid to really think we will go we just like to bark and throw a fit.
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RE: Texas looks to follow UK's example
June 27, 2016 at 3:14 pm
Apparently, that's what some of the brexiters thought they were doing as well. Surprise, surprise.
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