(August 1, 2016 at 12:00 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:

Excited Penguin Wrote:I asked a perfectly reasonable question of agnostics - that they tell me whether they believe in the existence of something which they would call God themselves. I think that's a pretty good question, leaving no ambiguity, to determine whether one is a theist or an atheist.

There simply isn't a state between the two. You either believe in a god or you don't. If you don't, you're an atheist. Now you can dislike a word, but that doesn't make it wrong as a description of who you are.

I generally agree, one is either an agnostic theist or agnostic atheist...but the term 'agnostic' is popularly viewed as a halfway position between belief and lack of belief, and maybe there should be a term for someone who truly has no opinion either way or is undecided or vacillates. It doesn't pick my pocket or break my leg if someone calls themselves an agnostic. Maybe a little conversation will reveal that they are an agnostic atheist or agnostic theist; but it might reveal they are an 'agnostic agnostic': so on the edge of belief that it's reasonable for them to claim that they neither believe nor lack belief. It IS a binary condition, but it's possible to 'flicker' so much between belief and nonbelief that just plain agnostic is a useful word. Like a switch in the middle position will be 'off' or 'on', but so close to being 'either' that it's okay to say it's in the middle. But I'm a splitter, not a lumper, on this topic.

Notice the amazing mental gymnastics required to make sense of this stupidity.

I'm sorry, I'm just not interested.

Excited Penguin Wrote:

Quote:Atheism is not an opinion. Far greater minds than yours or mine agree with me on that, if "mere" logic doesn't convince you. Atheism is the description of a non-state, it is the default position - it is natural. Where there is lack of theistic belief within an intelligence, you have atheism. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just something to describe all the people in the world who don't believe in Gods. Do we need the word? Yes, it's unfortunate but we need it. Why?  Simply because theists are the majority.

The basis of our disagreement is that you see lack of belief as merely 'belief not present', and I see it as 'belief not granted'. The reason I see it that way is that an atheist is a 'person concerned with atheism' (athe-ist), not a 'person without theism' (a-theist). I used to hold the same opinion as you, I was persuaded otherwise when I looked at the origin and history of the words involved. But just as I would not deny you the right to call yourself an agnostic, I won't deny you the right to call a person who has no notion whatsoever of term 'God/god' an atheist if you want. No skin off my nose. I've presented my opinion, you're welcome to leave it instead of take it.



o·pin·ion
əˈpinyən/
noun
noun: opinion; plural noun: opinions
[ol]
[li]a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.[/li]
[/ol]

Alasdair Ham Wrote:"Atheism" derives from "Atheos" I'm pretty sure...?

The French term 'atheisme' was coined in the 1600s (before the term 'theisme', interestingly), and it was based on the Greek 'atheos'. The English word derived from the French one, but 'atheos' is the root.

(August 1, 2016 at 12:11 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: The basis of our disagreement is that you see lack of belief as merely 'belief not present', and I see it as 'belief not granted'. The reason I see it that way is that an atheist is a 'person concerned with atheism' (athe-ist), not a 'person without theism' (a-theist). I used to hold the same opinion as you, I was persuaded otherwise when I looked at the origin and history of the words involved. But just as I would not deny you the right to call yourself an agnostic, I won't deny you the right to call a person who has no notion whatsoever of term 'God/god' an atheist if you want. No skin off my nose. I've presented my opinion, you're welcome to leave it instead of take it.



o·pin·ion
əˈpinyən/
noun
noun: opinion; plural noun: opinions

1. a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
   

Again, atheism is not merely an opinion(though it can be just that in some instances) and I know what an opinion means. I believe I have already showed that the derivation of the word atheist is concerned with describing secular people, which agnostics clearly are. So your invitation that I either take your opinion or leave it coupled with that appeal at authority right there in the middle speaks volumes as to how much you really know about the subject.

I'll just let that baste....

(August 1, 2016 at 2:39 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: I'll just let that baste....

I'm sorry, you made some good points. I just don't know when to drop it, I guess 

I like the new EP.

(August 1, 2016 at 2:42 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: I like the new EP.

Petting me on the head every time I'm being nice isn't really helpful. It's like you think I'm so fragile that if I don't get constant applause for acting normal I'll drop the act and start flaming everyone in sight or something. Not to mention, it's more than a little condescending. So thanks, I know you mean well, but stop it please.

(I don't really mean it, I like your support, I guess I just had to say something to cut the awkwardness.)

It's who I am. I praise and compliment people a lot. I didn't mean to make you feel condescended, it wasn't my intention. I'm sorry.

See my edited reply.