Rant against anti-atheist agnostics.

[Whateverist]

Don't get me wrong, I'm agnostic too. Very much so in fact.

But 'militant' agnostics, like a certain new member whose user name cuts a little close to home, tick me off. Please tell me what it is you think you know about what these god-things are that makes you argue so vociferously against non-belief in them.

I get agnosticism. I don't get anti-atheism. What is that about? Personally I have no more trouble with agnostic theists than I do agnostic atheists. These are my peoples.

Anti-atheist agnostics, like their brethren atheist anti-theists, carry around huge axes to grind. Both talk proudly of reasoned argument and evidence. But both are obviously more animated by emotional bile than any reason they actually own up to. Both are obviously working through issues which cloud their judgment.

[/vent]

[Anomalocaris]

The want to fit in with majority theists, but feel superior to majority theists at the same time. Self styled visionaries with little wit and no real conviction, the sort of contrarian who, had they not been contrarian, would have been perfectly happy being pastor to the dumbest theists.

[Simon Moon]

I am right there with you.

Every anti-atheist agnostic I've ever run across, seems to have a (excuse the expression), 'holier than thou' attitude toward atheists, which usually comes from the same misunderstanding of atheism as most theists have.

They also seem to think agnosticism is some sort of happy middle ground between theism (belief) and atheism (disbelief).

Belief is the psychological state in which one accepts a proposition to be true. Either you accept the proposition that a god exists (theism), or you don't accept the proposition that a god exists (atheism). There is no middle ground.

I am against forcing labels on people, but if you currently do not actively accept the proposition that at least one god exists is true, by definition, you are an atheist.

[Whateverist]

They also seem to think agnosticism is some sort of happy middle ground between theism (belief) and atheism (disbelief).

Belief is the psychological state in which one accepts a proposition to be true. Either you accept the proposition that a god exists (theism), or you don't accept the proposition that a god exists (atheism). There is no middle ground.

I am against forcing labels on people, but if you currently do not actively accept the proposition that at least one god exists is true, by definition, you are an atheist.

^Yep, very much this.^

It is fine and good to say, as I will myself sometimes, that deciding what to believe regarding gods is just not a high enough priority to bother with at this time. But, in truth, I really don't believe in fanciful things which other people claim in the absence of any clear idea of what it is they believe in or any reason why I should too. So I'm definitely an atheist, if only a provisional one.

Our new member definitely has the idea that she is maintaining neutrality in the absence of any evidence for gnostic theism or (gnostic) atheism. What she fails to recognize is that atheism is not a counter claim, it is simply the rejection of the prior claim for theism.

Aack.

[Dystopia]

Don't get me wrong, I'm agnostic too. Very much so in fact.

Really? How certain are you that god doesn't exist?

But 'militant' agnostics, like a certain new member whose user name cuts a little close to home, tick me off. Please tell me what it is you think you know about what these god-things are that makes you argue so vociferously against non-belief in them.

They seem to think agnosticism is a cool middle ground, and they also appear to love tolerance and mutual respect so they dislike conflicts between them and others, and between others. They also think god can't be proven or disproven, and so the best we can do is speculate and take no more position.

I get agnosticism. I don't get anti-atheism. What is that about? Personally I have no more trouble with agnostic theists than I do agnostic atheists. These are my peoples.

I don't get agnosticism, it is anti-pragmatic and makes us nihilistic.

Anti-atheist agnostics, like their brethren atheist anti-theists, carry around huge axes to grind. Both talk proudly of reasoned argument and evidence. But both are obviously more animated by emotional bile than any reason they actually own up to. Both are obviously working through issues which cloud their judgment.

Any problem with anti-theism?

[Whateverist]

Don't get me wrong, I'm agnostic too. Very much so in fact.

Really? How certain are you that god doesn't exist?

Not at all, actually. The formal term for it is ignostic. I find the concept of god to be incoherent. No two believers seem to have exactly the same idea. What agreement there is is the byproduct of adopting the dogma of some religious institution.

(Agnostics) think god can't be proven or disproven, and so the best we can do is speculate and take no more position.

Since I'm not at all clear what counts as a god, I am not at all certain what would count as confirming or disproving god. Unless I am just stupid about gods, I don't really think anyone else knows either. Therefore I don't think anyone can prove or disprove gods, but that doesn't matter much. I'm fine with simply not believing. I don't insist on KNOWING no gods exist.

The only thing I have to give up is thinking everyone who chooses to believe in something they call a god is a putz. That isn't really anything I want any way.

I get agnosticism. I don't get anti-atheism. What is that about? Personally I have no more trouble with agnostic theists than I do agnostic atheists. These are my peoples.

I don't get agnosticism, it is anti-pragmatic and makes us nihilistic.

I'm not nihilistic and I'm not a strict pragmatist because I don't believe expedience is always the highest good. But I'm comfortable without certainty. It might not work for you.

Any problem with anti-theism?

Yes. I think it too often willfully misrepresents and overstates its case without regard for developing any real empathy for what it that theists value and why. Knocking down the ridiculous claims of fundamentalist theists is too easy.

There really is nothing you can say to someone who believes in a god and recognizes that it is a choice of faith and not an outcome of reason. An agnostic theist deserves your respect though not your agreement.

[Elskidor]

I know a couple like that that get on my nerves. Both claim that atheists are as bad as Christians for they think we all believe we have proof deities don't exist. I think they are just confused on the definition and are also likely closet atheists for they sure despise organized religions too.

[KichigaiNeko]

I think I prefer the term Sceptic/ Skeptic.

So far I have not seen any proof of any of the, what 3,000 odd gods that humanity believes in to be the "One True God"

Conclusion? There are no gods, just people wanting power.

[The Grand Nudger]

Yes. I think it too often willfully misrepresents and overstates its case without regard for developing any real empathy for what it that theists value and why. Knocking down the ridiculous claims of fundamentalist theists is too easy.

In my sig line, you will see an expression of anti-theism. I'm not interested in developing any empathy for that belief. None. I don't care why they value it. It's hardly a ridiculous claim coming from the fringe, it's a ridiculous claim that defines the faith. It's still easy to shit on, though.

[Whateverist]

Yes. I think it too often willfully misrepresents and overstates its case without regard for developing any real empathy for what it that theists value and why. Knocking down the ridiculous claims of fundamentalist theists is too easy.

In my sig line, you will see an expression of anti-theism. I'm not interested in developing any empathy for that belief. None. I don't care why they value it. It's hardly a ridiculous claim coming from the fringe, it's a ridiculous claim that defines the faith. It's still easy to shit on, though.

That is your choice of course. Just as it is their choice to go on believing the fantastic things their parents pressed on them so fervently. Anyone can shit on anyone else and ridicule what they find profound. Gawd knows enough theists revile atheists with enthusiasm. I just don't have a dog in that fight.

People believe extravagant things. I do. I think you do too. What's more, aside from empirical fact, none of us is privy to any absolute scale of values from which to judge what is or should be important to people. I just go ahead and stake my claim to what I value with no thought to justifying that to anyone else.

I try to respect the choices of others, but not because I think that is what a good person should do. I do it because I prefer to live in a world of peers and not some solipsistic nightmare where I am the only one with the truth and everyone who disagrees is just a deluded zombie. I want no part of that world. Tolerance is the only viable way.