(August 10, 2016 at 10:25 am)SteveII Wrote: Just think? Why not objectively better off? Psychologically and sociologically well-being is important--actually the most important measure of a person's "better off-ness". 

Islam is not comparable to Christianity in this way. Islam is significantly more about following rules and formulas and not about a "changed person" as a result of salvation and a relationship with God. The god of Islam is not about grace, love, forgiveness, compassion and relationships with people. 

You are making stuff up. Demonstrate that any of this is true.

Quote:In addition to my points above, I think Christianity has superior life-changing attributes over other religions. But even if other religions had similar effects on its converts, that does not make them all right or all wrong. You would have to examine the truth claims of each. 

How have you examined the truth claims of the Bible?

Quote:Why does an advantage have to be explained by 'something other than social/psychological benefits'? Why isn't a person's experience with and relationship with God real evidence of God's grace and compassion (something he is doing for his followers)--especially when the experiment has been done billions of times? Someone who has not experienced this can not judge it and especially cannot claim that it is not God's reward to his followers. 

The experiment has not been done "billions of times," unless the experiment is to see how many people you can get to believe in a fairy tale without making you provide them evidence.

Quote:For your point to be true, you would have to be able to develop the same effect in a person without religion. How does one get a person's nature to change from whatever state they were in before to one of "...love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control" as well as hope? If you can't generate that change with regularity with something non-religious, then how can you really determine whether it is real or not? If you cannot determine whether it is real, you cannot make the claim that God is not working in the lives of his followers.

Have you actually met any Christians? This sounds a lot like things Christians say, and not a lot like things Christians actually adopt.

1. You're correct, my opinion. With out proof or evidence, in my world this is a delusion. A delusion accepted in our current society, so far. The numbers say that it is on it's way out.
2. Bullshit. If it was only about change it could be change for the worse. For some it is. How many people have developed guilt trips over not living up to the "being a good person" criteria in the delusion. If everyone experienced change for the worse, it would be done. Feel for the better and change for the better are basically the same.
3. Within a particular religious belief, you (anyone) is/are not objective. You assigning "more or less" has no value except to you and your herd. I'm sure the hindus (for example) believe that they are "more" than you.

(August 10, 2016 at 1:35 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(August 10, 2016 at 12:49 pm)robvalue Wrote: Huh, what? I owe you a detailed reply to every post do I?

I was trying to be polite.

Sometime I forget to discern the difference between wanting to discuss something and wanting to make a point so one feels good about one's belief.

Atheism has nothing to do with belief though, however theism is all about just wanting to feel good about one's belief. Believers want to believe that there is a god to babysit them, a heaven for them when they die rather than FUCKING NOTHING and a hell for all those nasty mean people to go to.

(August 10, 2016 at 1:47 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(August 10, 2016 at 10:25 am)SteveII Wrote: Just think? Why not objectively better off? Psychologically and sociologically well-being is important--actually the most important measure of a person's "better off-ness". 

Islam is not comparable to Christianity in this way. Islam is significantly more about following rules and formulas and not about a "changed person" as a result of salvation and a relationship with God. The god of Islam is not about grace, love, forgiveness, compassion and relationships with people. 

You are making stuff up.  Demonstrate that any of this is true.

Quote:In addition to my points above, I think Christianity has superior life-changing attributes over other religions. But even if other religions had similar effects on its converts, that does not make them all right or all wrong. You would have to examine the truth claims of each. 

How have you examined the truth claims of the Bible?

Quote:Why does an advantage have to be explained by 'something other than social/psychological benefits'? Why isn't a person's experience with and relationship with God real evidence of God's grace and compassion (something he is doing for his followers)--especially when the experiment has been done billions of times? Someone who has not experienced this can not judge it and especially cannot claim that it is not God's reward to his followers. 

The experiment has not been done "billions of times," unless the experiment is to see how many people you can get to believe in a fairy tale without making you provide them evidence.

Quote:For your point to be true, you would have to be able to develop the same effect in a person without religion. How does one get a person's nature to change from whatever state they were in before to one of "...love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control" as well as hope? If you can't generate that change with regularity with something non-religious, then how can you really determine whether it is real or not? If you cannot determine whether it is real, you cannot make the claim that God is not working in the lives of his followers.

Have you actually met any Christians?  This sounds a lot like things Christians say, and not a lot like things Christians actually adopt.

What stuff am I supposedly making up? Why psychological and sociological well-being is extremely important or what Islam teaches? The first link when I searched for "salvation in islam and christianity' is here (know absolutely nothing about the website but the guy compared the two nicely).

I have examined the truth claims of the Bible. Also, Judaism, Islam, Mormonism, JW, and a little Hinduism. What is your point? 

Billions of people have entered into a relationship with God. Their experience/testimony would be empirical evidence for everything we are discussing. 

I have met Christians. Many do not model Christ very well. Many do. Your point? 

If your point is there is no proof for God, I obviously would disagree. Among other things, why isn't someone's experience proof for the existence of God?

(August 10, 2016 at 1:35 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(August 10, 2016 at 12:49 pm)robvalue Wrote: Huh, what? I owe you a detailed reply to every post do I?

I was trying to be polite.

Sometime I forget to discern the difference between wanting to discuss something and wanting to make a point so one feels good about one's belief.

How exactly have I not discussed this? I've given you multiple bites at the cherry in this thread. You've come up with absolutely nothing each time. The last effort was so bad it wasn't coherent enough to reply to.

You're extremely childish and I won't be bothering with you anymore.

(August 10, 2016 at 3:47 pm)SteveII Wrote: Among other things, why isn't someone's experience proof for the existence of God?

So what sort of experiences happen among so-called "born again Christians" that other people could never experience without turning to Christ?

(August 10, 2016 at 1:48 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: 1. You're correct, my opinion. With out proof or evidence, in my world this is a delusion. A delusion accepted in our current society, so far. The numbers say that it is on it's way out.
2. Bullshit. If it was only about change it could be change for the worse. For some it is. How many people have developed guilt trips over not living up to the "being a good person" criteria in the delusion. If everyone experienced change for the worse, it would be done. Feel for the better and change for the better are basically the same.
3. Within a particular religious  belief, you (anyone) is/are not objective. You assigning "more or less" has no value except to you and your herd. I'm sure the hindus (for example) believe that they are "more" than you.

1. Again, your opinion. Evangelical Christianity has decreased by 0.9% in 7 years in the US. Is that even the margin of error? Probably not cause for celebration. Numbers are growing worldwide. 
2. Feel better is different than a change in character, self-worth, conduct, outlook, and hope. You are trying to minimize the change to fit your argument. As I mentioned in my longer post a page back, can you generate that kind of change with a non-religious experience? If so, what? If not, why not? 
3. You are confusing my point. "...love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control" as well as hope is subjective but a change in a person to these qualities is objectively better than not.

Religion provides great power of control in time of crisis when treasures are empty. Like right now.

In Russia government made mandatory religions and etics classes in 11 years of school. Hungry peasants instead of wishing for a change in country by force and casualties, they will strive towards heaven. Isnt that sweet? Everybody wins, yay!

Muslims, being extremely poor, use religion as the main governing tool. This tool must be suited for their mentality and shouldn't be the same as their opponents religion.

(August 10, 2016 at 4:33 pm)SteveII Wrote: 1. Again, your opinion. Evangelical Christianity has decreased by 0.9% in 7 years in the US. Is that even the margin of error? Probably not cause for celebration. Numbers are growing worldwide. 
2. Feel better is different than a change in character, self-worth, conduct, outlook, and hope. You are trying to minimize the change to fit your argument. As I mentioned in my longer post a page back, can you generate that kind of change with a non-religious experience? If so, what? If not, why not? 
3. You are confusing my point. "...love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control" as well as hope is subjective but a change in a person to these qualities is objectively better than not.

bold mine

1. Source for the bold. I'll bet I can find sources that say otherwise. Christian sources. Suck it up, you are loosing.
2. You are trying to maximize change to fit yours. So any beneficial change requires religion, horseshit. Surviving an accident/illness can cause a change. Being imprisoned can cause a change. Being struck by lightening can cause a change. Death of someone close can cause a change. Education can cause a change. Science can cause a change. Medicine can cause a change.
3. I'm not confusing anything. You are not impartial.

(August 10, 2016 at 3:47 pm)SteveII Wrote: Among other things, why isn't someone's experience proof for the existence of God?

Because it is not reproducible. It is only their story/testimony. People have stories about experience with aliens. Do you consider that proof of aliens? People have stories about experience with bigfoot. People have stories about experience with poltergeists. People have stories about experience talking to the dead. Do you consider any of these proof?

You are wallowing in your delusion, which is fine. Don't expect me to join you.