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RE: If free will was not real
August 17, 2016 at 5:42 pm
(This post was last modified: August 17, 2016 at 5:42 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(August 17, 2016 at 5:37 pm)Gemini Wrote: Oh come on. Sky hook? Accuse me of redefining terms to suit my biases if you like--you might be right--but don't accuse me of skyhook. In even the must unflattering interpretation, it's crane "redefined" as skyhook. LOL< it's a particular -type- of crane...a fictional one, used to lift equally fictional things up and out of the mire. 
Quote:Now when it comes to duress, I listened to music that I would not choose to listen to if I was alone. But I given the social predispositions of primates, and I don't think I can be blamed for agreeing to listen to some metal band with "murder" in the name just because I wanted to please my partner.
I'm not blaming you, I understand completely. I'm wondering why this isn't duress, in your conception of how free decisionmaking is, and whether or not it is, indeed, free?
Quote:There is reason for aesthetic appreciation, and more importantly, value within the causal regime in which I operate.
Do those reasons compell you to make particular decisions given a spread of options? Why is this not duress?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If free will was not real
August 17, 2016 at 5:45 pm
(August 17, 2016 at 5:35 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Here's one for both of you (gem, irrational)
What you're describing -seems- to be an attept to claim your will for yourself. To say that regardless of what process makes it all work, or how you came to posess this or that..if it;s yours, it's "free". Lacking duress, or uncoerced. Laying aside that I have serious doubts about both of these descriptions of your respective decisionmaking experiences....
Why not just call that your will, or my will, or...just will? What's free doing there?
Two answers:
1) To emphasize the freedom that comes with possessing a will. More a response to people who argue that one possesses a will but that the will is not free. It's a reactionary thing.
2) Because will can sometimes be coerced by an external entity into choosing between certain options. If my father wanted me as a child to become either a doctor or an engineer, and I exercised my will to eventually become a doctor (I'm no doctor, btw), then I may not have exercised free will even though I did exercise my will to the extent that I chose to be a doctor instead of an engineer. As far as my perception goes, there was no direct force forcefully leading to become a doctor, but I wasn't exactly free enough with my choices either. I did it for my father, not for myself.
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RE: If free will was not real
August 17, 2016 at 5:48 pm
(This post was last modified: August 17, 2016 at 5:53 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(August 17, 2016 at 5:45 pm)Irrational Wrote: Two answers:
1) To emphasize the freedom that comes with possessing a will. What freedom is that, again? You see, at this point it's went beyond reassertion and become question begging.
Quote:More a response to people who argue that one possesses a will but that the will is not free. It's a reactionary thing.
Well, is it? Isn't that what we're discussing?
Quote:2) Because will can sometimes be coerced by an external entity into choosing between certain options. If my father wanted me as a child to become either a doctor or an engineer, and I exercised my will to eventually become a doctor (I'm no doctor, btw), then I may not have exercised free will even though I did exercise my will to the extent that I chose to be a doctor instead of an engineer. As far as my perception goes, there was no direct force forcefully leading to become a doctor, but I wasn't exactly free enough with my choices either. I did it for my father, not for myself.
Just sometimes? At this point we're at least considering where these things we possess may have come from....so, what things, in your head....come from nowhere but your head? What conditions or paramaters are wholly owned by you, with you as their point of origin? Which, if any, have you -not- been programmed to, regarding these parameters and conditions, by your environment and experience thereof?
In the particular example...was there no direct force leading you to becoming a doctor...because you just described a -powerful- force in human behavior and decisionmaking. The hopes and expectations of our parents. The claim appears to contradict itself as soon as it's uttered, even as you describe it.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If free will was not real
August 17, 2016 at 5:51 pm
(This post was last modified: August 17, 2016 at 5:55 pm by Gemini.)
(August 17, 2016 at 5:42 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I'm not blaming you, I understand completely. I'm wondering why this isn't duress, in your conception of how free decisionmaking is, and whether or not it is, indeed, free?
Easy. The reasons that originate from my own psychology don't compel my actions in the way that a decision made under duress does.
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RE: If free will was not real
August 17, 2016 at 5:57 pm
(This post was last modified: August 17, 2016 at 6:00 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Again with the skyhook. The reasons -are- duress, or at least they seem to be. You say they don't compel your actions in the same way...but I'm not sure what that means, you -must- have an adequate description to claim it, and from your own comments they do -appear- to compel your decisions. When it's too easy, that's the first hint of a problem.
(if it were that easy to establish free will we wouldn;t be having this discussion )
Just to bring both threads of discussion together...since we;re still discussing those things from "within your own psychology" (again, possession/ownership, not freedom) - how did they get there? Where are they from?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If free will was not real
August 17, 2016 at 6:00 pm
(August 17, 2016 at 5:48 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (August 17, 2016 at 5:45 pm)Irrational Wrote: Two answers:
1) To emphasize the freedom that comes with possessing a will. What freedom is that, again? You see, at this point it's went beyond reassertion and become question begging.
Quote:2) Because will can sometimes be coerced by an external entity into choosing between certain options. If my father wanted me as a child to become either a doctor or an engineer, and I exercised my will to eventually become a doctor (I'm no doctor, btw), then I may not have exercised free will even though I did exercise my will to the extent that I chose to be a doctor instead of an engineer. As far as my perception goes, there was no direct force forcefully leading to become a doctor, but I wasn't exactly free enough with my choices either. I did it for my father, not for myself.
Just sometimes? At this point we're at least considering where these things we possess may have come from....so, what things, in your head....come from nowhere but your head? What conditions or paramaters are wholly owned by you, with you as their point of origin? Which, if any, have you -not- been programmed to, regarding these parameters and conditions, by your environment and experience thereof?
In the particular example...was there no direct force leading you to becoming a doctor...because you just described a -powerful- force in human behavior and decisionmaking. The hopes and expectations of our parents. The claim appears to contradict itself as soon as it's uttered, even as you describe it.
Regarding the first point: No, it's not question begging. I was just answering your question about why add free next to will. The answer is that it's for emphasis. I didn't in that part try to "prove" the conclusion by presuming it.
Second point: Yes, there are all these details and so on regarding causality and such, but they're not relevant regarding how I see free will.
And yes, just sometimes. You can define coercion the way you want, but chances are I won't agree with it.
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RE: If free will was not real
August 17, 2016 at 6:02 pm
(August 17, 2016 at 5:57 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Again with the skyhook. The reasons -are- duress, or at least they seem to be. You say they don't compel your actions in the same way...but I'm not sure what that means, you -must- have an adequate description to claim it, and from your own comments they do -appear- to compel your decisions. When it's too easy, that's the first hint of a problem.
(if it were that easy to establish free will we wouldn;t be having this discussion )
The reasons aren't duress if they don't originate from an agent. I think that's the key point in our difference. Yes, the constraints of physics determine my decisions. But since I myself am a physical process, constrained by natural law, I don't consider the constraints of physics to be duress. Only if they are imposed by some other agent would I consider that.
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RE: If free will was not real
August 17, 2016 at 6:04 pm
(This post was last modified: August 17, 2016 at 6:08 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(August 17, 2016 at 6:00 pm)Irrational Wrote: Regarding the first point: No, it's not question begging. I was just answering your question about why add free next to will. The answer is that it's for emphasis. I didn't in that part try to "prove" the conclusion by presuming it. "I know I have free will because I make uncoerced decisions" You call it free as a reactive response to people who doubt that it actually -is- free -  I had to put the brakes on you at some point.
Quote:Second point: Yes, there are all these details and so on regarding causality and such, but they're not relevant regarding how I see free will.
OH ffs....the details of what and whether will is free from aren;t relevant regarding how you see free will? That's -exactly- what I thought when we began.
Quote:And yes, just sometimes. You can define coercion the way you want, but chances are I won't agree with it.
IDK, I can be pretty coercive.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If free will was not real
August 17, 2016 at 6:06 pm
(This post was last modified: August 17, 2016 at 6:06 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(August 17, 2016 at 6:02 pm)Gemini Wrote: (August 17, 2016 at 5:57 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Again with the skyhook. The reasons -are- duress, or at least they seem to be. You say they don't compel your actions in the same way...but I'm not sure what that means, you -must- have an adequate description to claim it, and from your own comments they do -appear- to compel your decisions. When it's too easy, that's the first hint of a problem.
(if it were that easy to establish free will we wouldn;t be having this discussion )
The reasons aren't duress if they don't originate from an agent. I think that's the key point in our difference. Yes, the constraints of physics determine my decisions. But since I myself am a physical process, constrained by natural law, I don't consider the constraints of physics to be duress. Only if they are imposed by some other agent would I consider that.
Dont they all...aren't you an agent? Before it was duress, but now it's agency, and particularly external? The goalposts are shifting...and still the question remains. Are you -not- under duress from external "agents" every single day of your life? What, exactly, are you making decisions -about-?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If free will was not real
August 17, 2016 at 6:11 pm
(August 17, 2016 at 6:04 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (August 17, 2016 at 6:00 pm)Irrational Wrote: Regarding the first point: No, it's not question begging. I was just answering your question about why add free next to will. The answer is that it's for emphasis. I didn't in that part try to "prove" the conclusion by presuming it. "I know I have free will because I make uncoerced decisions" You call it free as a reactive response to people who doubt that it actually -is- free - I had to put the brakes on you at some point.
Quote:Second point: Yes, there are all these details and so on regarding causality and such, but they're not relevant regarding how I see free will.
OH ffs....the details of what and whether will is free from aren;t relevant regarding how you see free will? That's -exactly- what I thought when we began.
Quote:And yes, just sometimes. You can define coercion the way you want, but chances are I won't agree with it.
IDK, I can be pretty coercive.
I'm noticing that my points are being twisted so you could attack a strawmen instead of addressing my words exactly as written. I'm done playing your game.
And perhaps you can be pretty coercive, but you also seem to think too highly of yourself.
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