I had edited my previous post and then saw this reply, but I don't think the changes were that substantial except a note I included at the bottom about why I think I was not daydreaming.

I didn't go back and say *maybe* I was day dreaming as long as it's an altered state. I mentioned day dreaming as an example of an altered state because you had excluded it as qualifying as one and did not define what you considered to be an altered state of mind. But it is one even according to the definition you provided. Day dreaming occurs in the theta wave state.

Really, by your argument it would be unsupportable for me to ever claim to have day dreamed since I could not at the time measure my brain to determine if I was in the theta brain wave state.

I am having trouble with the quote button not being as familiar with this forum. You made a statement a few posts back I took to be a reference to subjective states although perhaps you were referring only to physical changes in the brain which unlike reported subjective states are demonstrable and with which I would agree:

"Yes, there is, you referenced it yourself, in that altered states have been recorded. There's no way for -you- to do so because you are referring to anecdotes. You did not have any equipment available. As such I can't know that they -were- altered states in the sense you previously referenced, and neither can you."

I have been describing experiences especially those involving unusual audial and visual perceptions as altered states. Hallucinations are mentioned as examples of altered states in psychological literature, but no, I cannot prove that I was not in the Beta state. I have had an EEG scan before which did detect unusual electrical activity during a time when I was having some less intense unusual perceptual experiences, although I do not know what it involved.

If I understand your argument correctly it seems to me that no one should claim that (s)he has ever experienced an altered state, even day dreaming, without having their brain activity measured during that experience.

(September 1, 2016 at 12:55 am)Panatheist Wrote: I had edited my previous post and then saw this reply, but I don't think the changes were that substantial except a note I included at the bottom about why I think I was not daydreaming.

I didn't go back and say *maybe* I was day dreaming as long as it's an altered state.  I mentioned day dreaming as an example of an altered state because you had excluded it as qualifying as one and did not define what you considered to be an altered state of mind.  But it is one even according to the definition you provided.  Day dreaming occurs in the theta wave state.

No, you didn't say that, I did....just trying to negotiate an equitable split.  

Quote:Really, by your argument it would be unsupportable for me to ever claim to have day dreamed since I could not at the time measure my brain to determine if I was in the theta brain wave state.

You -would- be unable to support it, but I can accept that you daydream.  

Quote:I am having trouble with the quote button not being as familiar with this forum.  You made a statement a few posts back I took to be a reference to subjective states although perhaps you were referring only to physical changes in the brain which unlike reported subjective states are demonstrable and with which I would agree:

"Yes, there is, you referenced it yourself, in that altered states have been recorded.  There's no way for -you- to do so because you are referring to anecdotes.  You did not have any equipment available.  As such I can't know that they -were- altered states in the sense you previously referenced, and neither can you."

I have been describing experiences especially those involving unusual audial and visual perceptions as altered states.  Hallucinations are mentioned as examples of altered states in psychological literature, but no, I cannot prove that I was not in the Beta state.  I have had an EEG scan before which did detect unusual electrical activity during a time when I was having some less intense unusual perceptual experiences, although I do not know what it involved.

If I understand your argument correctly it seems to me that no one should claim that (s)he has ever experienced an altered state, even day dreaming, without having their brain activity measured during that experience.

That would be incorrect.   I can dismiss your attribution because you have failed to verify it, had no means to verify it, and made poor inferences to arrive at it as a conclusion.  It has nothing to do with whether or not you've ever experienced an altered state...whether or not you've ever daydreamed...none of that.  It's a poor attribution, with only your anecdote to go on. This is what is being dismissed.

(September 1, 2016 at 1:03 am)Rhythm Wrote:

(September 1, 2016 at 12:55 am)Panatheist Wrote: I had edited my previous post and then saw this reply, but I don't think the changes were that substantial except a note I included at the bottom about why I think I was not daydreaming.

I didn't go back and say *maybe* I was day dreaming as long as it's an altered state.  I mentioned day dreaming as an example of an altered state because you had excluded it as qualifying as one and did not define what you considered to be an altered state of mind.  But it is one even according to the definition you provided.  Day dreaming occurs in the theta wave state.

No, you didn't say that, I did....just trying to negotiate an equitable split.  

Quote:Really, by your argument it would be unsupportable for me to ever claim to have day dreamed since I could not at the time measure my brain to determine if I was in the theta brain wave state.

You -would- be unable to support it, but I can accept that you daydream.  

Quote:I am having trouble with the quote button not being as familiar with this forum.  You made a statement a few posts back I took to be a reference to subjective states although perhaps you were referring only to physical changes in the brain which unlike reported subjective states are demonstrable and with which I would agree:

"Yes, there is, you referenced it yourself, in that altered states have been recorded.  There's no way for -you- to do so because you are referring to anecdotes.  You did not have any equipment available.  As such I can't know that they -were- altered states in the sense you previously referenced, and neither can you."

I have been describing experiences especially those involving unusual audial and visual perceptions as altered states.  Hallucinations are mentioned as examples of altered states in psychological literature, but no, I cannot prove that I was not in the Beta state.  I have had an EEG scan before which did detect unusual electrical activity during a time when I was having some less intense unusual perceptual experiences, although I do not know what it involved.

If I understand your argument correctly it seems to me that no one should claim that (s)he has ever experienced an altered state, even day dreaming, without having their brain activity measured during that experience.

That would be incorrect.   I can dismiss your attribution because you have failed to verify it, had no means to verify it, and made poor inferences to arrive at it as a conclusion.  It has nothing to do with whether or not you've ever experienced an altered state...whether or not you've ever daydreamed...none of that.  It's a poor attribution, with only your anecdote to go on.  This is what is being dismissed.

The attribution of the experience to an altered state?  I specifically used the term altered state to describe very unusual perceptual phenomena and said that anything I am experiencing subjectively including such perceptual phenomena must have a physical correlation to a state in the brain.  I didn't say what brain state or that I knew what brain state, just that there has to be a correlate in the brain to anything I am aware of.  I don't know what else could be said about that or what an atheist who doesn't believe in the supernatural could disagree with about that, honestly.

And I'm still not sure why day dreams are being treated differently in this discussion even though they actually fit the definition you have recently given.

I'd like to weigh in on a tangent.

I've had a fair number of experiences which I think OTHERS would call paranormal, spiritual, religious, etc. These are pretty compelling experiences, as well-- much more than hairs standing up on the neck. We're talking clouds opening, beams of light shining down, interaction with apparent other entities, etc.

In same cases, these experiences come with some form or other of coherence-- there are rules which the experiences seem to follow, or patterns among sets of experiences which link them in some way. And in some cases, they share coherence with the rest of my life/world view. For example, I've experienced under LSD the effects of synaesthesia, where I smelled things I saw, saw sounds, etc. I've experienced lucid dreams in which I was able to very vividly and in details hear how musical instruments would blend together, something I have difficulty doing in waking life.

I'm not so sure that in these cases it matters so much whether the ideas and experiences come from an objective reality or from something exclusively in my own brain-- I suspect the neural correlates would be very similar.

/disjointed ramblings about experiences

I have, in the past, had many hundreds of experiences where I could see, hear, smell, and even touch a person who was known for a fact to not have been there. Then Instarted taking risperdal in small doses. Now that almost never happens. (Like only twice ever since I started taking it).

I never suspect anyone is lying about whatever experiences they say they've had. I just often think it doesn't likely mean whatever they think it means...

Indeed. "Are you calling me a liar" is entirely the wrong question.

(September 1, 2016 at 2:05 am)Panatheist Wrote: The attribution of the experience to an altered state?  I specifically used the term altered state to describe very unusual perceptual phenomena and said that anything I am experiencing subjectively including such perceptual phenomena must have a physical correlation to a state in the brain.

Which is an awful lot of wiggle room for an altered state.  I see things in novel ways, ways that I don't normally see the them, all the time. Is this an altered state, do you feel that I would be justified in claiming that I am experiencing altered states?

Quote:I didn't say what brain state or that I knew what brain state, just that there has to be a correlate in the brain to anything I am aware of.  I don't know what else could be said about that or what an atheist who doesn't believe in the supernatural could disagree with about that, honestly.

To say that there has to be a nueral correlate is to say nothing at all (between the two of us, anyway), and you've said a great deal more than just that, cmon now.  

Quote:And I'm still not sure why day dreams are being treated differently in this discussion even though they actually fit the definition you have recently given.

Were you daydreaming?

Everything we experience is in an altered state. It's gone through at least two filters, and reproduced in a virtual environment. We never get to directly experience anything. We can only make reasonable inferences about the things we appear to be experiencing.