Nimzos Signature Wrote:"Those who believe that they believe in God, but without passion in their hearts, without anguish in mind, without uncertainty, without doubt, without an element of despair even in their consolation, believe only in the God idea, not God Himself." (Miguel de Unamuno).

Oh, I just saw that right now. Then I should have said that "God is an all-encompassing being" instead of an "idea," right?

However, the thing is that I cannot comprehend God Himself because I don't know what He looks like nor what is His nature at the most fundamental level of His existence (because I am not God), and therefore, its only possible for me to talk about Him in terms of my idea OF God, but never God Himself. This is not to say that I don't believe in God Himself. I do believe in God, but it's just that I cannot understand Him except by words which represent ideas about Him (such as all-powerful, eternal, creator, designer, etc).

(May 18, 2011 at 5:07 am)Rayaan Wrote: However, the thing is that I cannot comprehend God Himself because I don't know what He looks like nor what is His nature at the most fundamental level of His existence (because I am not God), and therefore, its only possible for me to talk about Him in terms of my idea OF God, but never God Himself. This is not to say that I don't believe in God Himself. I do believe in God, but it's just that I cannot understand Him except by words which represent ideas about Him (such as all-powerful, eternal, creator, designer, etc).

You are right that we cannot keep God in our heads - he is too big! In Christianity, God reveals His nature in the person of Jesus Christ and through Scripture. Of course, we cannot know God's nature in the same way that He knows Himself; but that is true of all the things that God knows (since He knows omnisciently and immediately). I don't know if these ideas correspond to your Islamic beliefs; the point is, though, that we can have true knowledge of God Himself, not simply ideas about Him, by His self-revelation.

(May 17, 2011 at 5:39 pm)Aerzia Saerules Arktuos Wrote: I am myself a nihilistic existential determinist. The first 2 are subjectivistic positions (Nothing holds inherent meaning, therefore all meaning for all things is necessarily subjective), the last first presumes logic to be true (things must be themselves, not not be themselves, be themselves or not themselves) and then states all things that occur had a cause for them to do so.

Not only is this a 'valid' viewpoint (it is logical to be logical, so says logic), but I think it is a sound viewpoint (as I should, considering I hold it).

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Interesting to know Aerzia!

Quote:What do you consider to be the core philosophy of nihilism?

I realise it was a pretty dumb statement, twas made in haste. Nevertheless I just mean I agree with what it is on a basic level. Life is pointless, the universe seems pointless etc.

Quote:It's naive and sad to be a subjectivist? That's funny... here I thought it was those objectivists that were naive, and sadness is not inherently related to one's worldview.

And yes, all purpose is derived by each of us. If someone claims to give you a purpose, this is a lie: you took the suggestion of purpose they provided and made it your own. Logically, you cannot have purpose without it being yours (ownership being that which you possess).

Like I said that's just what i'd seen from a few forums i'd visited discussing it. No doubt they were theists who held that viewpoint.
I agree, we can only make our own purpose, but that for me does not mean that life itself has a purpose in the grand scheme of things.

Quote:Nihilism implies precisely nothing, as it states all of itself in its name... it states that there is no such being as an 'inherent purpose'. For there to be no inherent purpose, nihilism requires subjectivism. That is the extent of what nihilism states, and it suggests nothing beyond that. The world is happy and horrible and bloody and filled with clean freaks and with beautiful landscapes that are designed as putridly as as maggots on a corpse in your breakfast cereal. These are all statements attributed to the world... not to nihilism. If 'purpose' was the only thing keeping one away from seeing sadness and perversion and from recognizing one's own limitations... I should think them far wiser and safer with that purpose removed.

This is true. Again from what I was reading elsewhere on the internet people seem to have labelled it incorrectly, calling it negative etc. But as you rightly said nihilism itself implies nothing

Quote:I'm worse at starting topics. If I don't say something sexual in the first few sentences, the thread doesn't even get to a second page. Maybe you'll have more luck

Lol well that doesn't surprise me!
Btw sorry for the short responses, i'm in a rush gotta get back to college in a few minutes.
I'll be back to respond to reverendjeremiah in a couple hours

Thought I'd chip in with the rather obvious quip that Nihilism is a worthless and meaningless crock of shite. :p

(May 18, 2011 at 8:28 am)Nimzo Wrote: Thought I'd chip in with the rather obvious quip that Nihilism is a worthless and meaningless crock of shite.

If you believe in the crock of shite that is 'god'.

Surely it's worthless and meaningless by definition?

(May 18, 2011 at 8:36 am)Nimzo Wrote: Surely it's worthless and meaningless by definition?

Perhaps, but crock of shite? no.

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(May 17, 2011 at 8:50 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: Being into absurdism (and consequently lumped into nihilism at the same time) I understand where you are coming from when you say you are tired of people talking bad about it. I personally can see great reason why people would move to nihilism and why it would be so popular.

I personally have a few beefs with nihilism:

#1 - it allows for suicide at any time for any reason, even if for no reason at all. Absurdism considers suicide to be the biggest philosophical question of all (nope, not god... imagine that?!?!). Absurdism says suicide is escaping reality, and therefore not an option. Fiath is considered "philosophical suicide" and escaping reality, and therefore not an option.
#2 - Nihilism does sometimes turn out to be negative in those who embrace it. Absurdism says the mix between the human condition and an inhuman cosmos (the absurd) should be both embraced and revolted against at the same time. This encourages a great sense of humor and a keen eye for bullshit.
#3 - Nihilism says there is no purpose outside of biological and chemical reasons, at all, ever. Absurdism says there is no INHERENT purpose between the cosmos and the human condition, but temporary purpose COULD be found in the journey..even if that journey is merely pointing out the absurd.
#4 - Nihilism says there is no god or deities at all. Absurdism brushes off the idea of gods as being an important choice, because if deities exist, then they are the cause of the absurdity, and therefore should be revolted against as well.

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I don't particular care what people's opinions are on the philosophy of nihilism itself. But rather the fact that people can just assume that all people who believe nihilism are morbid and careless.
My point which I really want to make clear, is that although life may have no intrinsic value in the grand scheme of the cosmos, on a personal level it can.
I think my life is rather pointless, does that mean I want it to end? no! not at all! Does it mean I would care if i suddenly got ran over by a bus? Well if I was to die then it wouldn't really matter.
But the point is that even though you may think everything we do pointless, it can still bring you joy and fulfilment, and even though life at times can be bad, there's a hell of a lot of good experiences I am recieving at the same time.
Sorry if it's unclear it's hard to put into words what's in my head

To address your points:
1# - I don't think nihilism condones suicide at all, all that nihilism basically says is that it doesn't matter if that's what someone chooses on a basic level. It doesn't go into what we as humans beings condone as human behaviour, or at least I have not seen anything to suggest nihilism does such a thing. For me nihilism is simply believing that what we are has no point, no creation if you'd rather that term. So suicide being a human choice, it's up to us as human's to decide whether it is wrong or not, nihilism simply makes no comment because it is irrelevant.
2# - I understand the point here, but again in terms of what nihilism is it's quite irrelevant. Everyone is individual, so what they choose to take from a philosophy is their choice. Personally I see no reason why nihilism should be negative, it's simply for me a position which I hold by default until there is any evidence provided that life has a point to it. Just like atheism is the default position until proof of god has been provided.
3# - This is interesting, I would agree more with the fact that we are just chemical and biological reactions, than what you suggest about absurdism. For me if there is no 'inherent' purpose then there is simply no purpose full stop. I think this differs from placing value on things however, because while life may have no intrinsic value, on a personal level to a particular individuals mind, life can have alot of purpose. I don't think nihilism contradicts this correct me if i'm wrong though (I very well could be).
4# - As mentioned before, for me not believing in god is the default position I take, so nihilism is entirely justified in what it is until i'm shown otherwise.

I'm not saying nihilism is true, but at this point in time with the evidence that science have given us, nihilism seems to be the only logical position I can hold until shown otherwise.

Man i'm rambling

Nihilism assumes that everything is subjective. I don't necessarily accept this assumption, but if I thought everything was subjective, I would choose a world view that's a little bit more cheerful than nihilism. But, whatever, to each his own. It neither breaks my arm nor picks my pocket.

Napoleon666 Wrote:I realise it was a pretty dumb statement, twas made in haste. Nevertheless I just mean I agree with what it is on a basic level. Life is pointless, the universe seems pointless etc.

And yet, that isn't how I understand the basic level of nihilism at all. Life, the universe, everything has not one but many points (1 if solipsistic garbage)... a point does not have to be objective/inherent for a point to there be

Quote:Like I said that's just what i'd seen from a few forums i'd visited discussing it. No doubt they were theists who held that viewpoint.
I agree, we can only make our own purpose, but that for me does not mean that life itself has a purpose in the grand scheme of things.

What is the grand scheme of things? And does this apply only to the lawful? And who was the schemer?

Nimzo Wrote:Thought I'd chip in with the rather obvious quip that Nihilism is a worthless and meaningless crock of shite.

And yet it has worth to me and meaning to me, therefore it is neither worthless or meaningless (As it possess both worth and meaning). And if it did have no meaning, then what precisely would you be on about? And worth/value is individual or compromised by a group of individuals... and I find that all the cool groups believe nihilism to at least be worth an occasional joke

(May 18, 2011 at 2:34 pm)Aerzia Saerules Arktuos Wrote: And yet it has worth to me and meaning to me, therefore it is neither worthless or meaningless (As it possess both worth and meaning).

That is a non-sequitur. Just because nihilism is valuable and has purpose to you, does not mean that it actually has value or purpose.

Quote:And if it did have no meaning, then what precisely would you be on about?

I am referring to existential meaning, not semantic meaning (i.e. propositional content).

Quote:And worth/value is individual or compromised by a group of individuals...

That is just equivalent to "nihilism is true", since nihilism just is the view that all notions of value and purpose are at most intersubjective.