In talking about mind, it's usually materialism vs idealism, or dualism vs. monism, determinism vs free-will, etc.  But while those are all nice ideas to talk about, it's also important to learn how to use the mind, or to have interesting mental experiences.

Would anyone else accept the thesis that meditators, spiritualists, etc. who are sincere in following set rules, making observations, drawing and testing hypotheses about things they might be able to get the mind to do, are actually engaged in a "subjective science" of mind?  Or is it just woo?

Also, is anyone into any process which involves nifty experiences, like lucid dreaming, transcendental meditation, or even just things like developing memory abilities or practicing the imagination?

I'd like to talk more about mind from the side of the experience-- what can we DO with our minds?

No.

Do you know how many times I have tried to move objects with my mind since the original "Carrie" movie?

(September 12, 2016 at 1:27 am)Maelstrom Wrote: No.  

Do you know how many times I have tried to move objects with my mind since the original "Carrie" movie?

I know one object I can move with only my mind. . . but apparently I'm not allowed to share pictures of that.

I've been very interested in the directional, substantial and elemental language we use to describe our emotions/states/processes of mind.

This man is upright vs the other who is crooked. Feeling up or down, turning around one's life, feeling flat and listless or pointed and directed. Or just occupying space and exerting no tension on the field of mind in observation of and influence upon internal inertia.

We feel "not all here" or centered in oneself, we talk of integrity vs a "flimsiness" of character. We want to drown in love, while still afraid of the darkness of our own depths, and love to stay in the lofty atmosphere of logic and intelligence where ideas and knowledge are clearly apprehended in the light of the mind. Liquid emotions that are quicken into a vapor can be ignited by the spark of an idea and social transformation rage like a forest fire. Of course you'll be told to stay grounded!

People are "triggered" when an outer idea clashes with an inner idea accompanied by many others going in the opposite direction... like a wheel or a gear. The more stuff there is in motion, the more inertia it retains and the harder it is to extricate one's self from it....the more teeth, the more likely its going to grab your chain and slow you down.


To get more specific I think the total mind (which includes the body) is like a semi-permeable vessel with further chambers within it that house different elemental information (thoughts, emotions, muscle memories/traumas, and will/passions) The interact and work together similar to how our bodies physical organs do. It's performance is very dependent on what we put into it. I guess you could call them psychic organs and one of the main 4 is the entire physical body.

People like to think their volitional mind is in total control but what we experience and what we choose to contain and collect and how those elements interact within us exert a great deal of influence....or else there would be no cognitive dissonance nor changes of heart.


Whether true or not I hope the overall idea was conveyed well enough.

The brain like most other parts of our anatomy can be trained and improved in efficiency for particular tasks. Meditators and others can raise their awareness, physical and mental capacities because they spend a major part of their live on this. However these improvements are still within the explainable realm of science, no amount training is gonna give them Jedi mind powers note other bs people claim. At most they'll be able to delude themselves with self hypnosis and hallucinations.

(September 12, 2016 at 2:18 am)Aoi Magi Wrote: At most they'll be able to delude themselves with self hypnosis and hallucinations.

Precisely.

For staw-instance: An SJW at a pizza restaurant is laughing it up with some friends talking about life and stuff. Their mood is elevated and their mind is "lofted" (expanded), thinking about future plans etc. Then in walks a bald Caucasian who orders a pizza with white sauce and the SJW is "triggered". Her mind contracts to the immediate situation and all the inertia of their collected beliefs/prejudices is now exerting force on their mind.

But it's not like the internal beliefs just magically appeared, they were there, already in motion until something in the environment caused the persons mind to go from "above" the internal inertia to carried along from within it. Like we go from a region of the mind external to the influence of that information to "trapped" within that region. Like we cross a membrane, above water vs below it.

(September 12, 2016 at 1:23 am)bennyboy Wrote: Would anyone else accept the thesis that meditators, spiritualists, etc. who are sincere in following set rules, making observations, drawing and testing hypotheses about things they might be able to get the mind to do, are actually engaged in a "subjective science" of mind?  Or is it just woo?

It's mostly woo because they do not operate from a true theory of mind, but rather a culturally derived folk psychology. They are learning concrete skills that they can do with their brain, but their insight into just what is happening when they do is complete fiction. It's based on an interpretation of how the mind works and those interpretations are invariably wrong. Being able to train your brain to do something does not automatically imbue you with knowledge about that skill. Knowing how is one type of knowing, that is largely unconscious, and knowing that (or about) is a completely different type of knowing. Meditators may have the first, but that doesn't give them the second.

Okay, so far I'm seeing refutations of the value of my request in the OP, but little interest in what it's like to do things with the mind. People say there's little value in talking about the mind if it isn't in accord with what we know about the material world. However, I'd say there's even less value in talking about the material world if it can't improve the richness of my experiences. How does knowing what brain parts do deepen my enjoyment of a sunset? How does adopting a belief in physical determinism usefully inform me on what it's like to push the mind to new places?

Whatever the underlying mechanism, I don't much care about it except for academic interest. What really matters is what it's like to be me, and how at my age I can still find something new to experience. My knowledge has put everything in categories, packaged everything away in boxes, so that I cannot see a tree but as a "tree," and I cannot see myself except through the eyes of a narrative that narrows in scope every time I turn the page.

It seems to me that knowing so much prevents me from learning, and that understanding so much prevents me from experiencing.

So I'm back to my original request: is there anyone there who has a sincere interest in studying what it's like to be themselves, and how different thoughts and processes affect them? Is there anyone who has picked up neat little tricks they can do with their minds?

I'm with you in being interested in the mind. But I'm not interested in it as an amusement park to be played in. I'm just curious to know its nature. So I'm not interested in 'disciplining' the mind so that 'I' can do stuff with it. I'm more interested in the mind phenomenologically. So when it comes to dreams, I find the actual details the interesting part .. not flying around in them like Ironman. It is very hard to understand the mind/self without influencing/distorting what it is you think you're studying at the same time.