(September 16, 2016 at 1:34 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: As for your second paragraph, I do care about my appearances.

Why? Do you think you should be treated with more respect when your appearance is better? If not, why do you care about your appearance?

Quote:But that doesn't mean I think a woman wearing less clothing should be treated with less respect as a human being.

It seems to indicate that you have a disconnect between what you claim to believe and what you actually believe.

Quote:There is no need for the 2 to be mutually exclusive.

I agree. We can view people as having inherent worth as human beings, and yet recognize that there are good and bad choices in life and have greater respect for those who make good choices.

Try thinking about a different scenario - a person (male or female) with clothing/jewelry/tattoos of swastikas or other images associated with white supremacists. Would you treat them with as much respect as anyone else? I hope not. They shouldn't be encouraged. Would you never use the word racist "to seriously describe someone or the way someone is dressed"? I agree that such people have inherent worth as human beings, but their actions and beliefs, as implied by their appearance, have consequences. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that.

Quote:We can have a desire to present ourselves well, while still treating others with respect when they are not dressed in a way we approve of or don't like.

Why do you desire to present yourself "well"? You're admitting here that there are better and worse ways to present one's self, and that you prefer to present yourself in a better fashion. Why? It's at least partially because people think better of you for it.

Yes, everyone has worth as a human being, and no one's advocating that we show open contempt for people who dress in worse ways, but that doesn't mean it's wrong to give more respect to people who dress in better ways. You understand that, or you wouldn't be concerned about presenting yourself well.

(September 16, 2016 at 2:08 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(September 16, 2016 at 1:34 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: As for your second paragraph, I do care about my appearances.

Why? Do you think you should be treated with more respect when your appearance is better? If not, why do you care about your appearance?

Quote:But that doesn't mean I think a woman wearing less clothing should be treated with less respect as a human being.

It seems to indicate that you have a disconnect between what you claim to believe and what you actually believe.

Quote:There is no need for the 2 to be mutually exclusive.

I agree. We can view people as having inherent worth as human beings, and yet recognize that there are good and bad choices in life and have greater respect for those who make good choices.

Try thinking about a different scenario - a person (male or female) with clothing/jewelry/tattoos of swastikas or other images associated with white supremacists. Would you treat them with as much respect as anyone else? I hope not. They shouldn't be encouraged. Would you never use the word racist "to seriously describe someone or the way someone is dressed"? I agree that such people have inherent worth as human beings, but their actions and beliefs, as implied by their appearance, have consequences. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that.

Quote:We can have a desire to present ourselves well, while still treating others with respect when they are not dressed in a way we approve of or don't like.

Why do you desire to present yourself "well"? You're admitting here that there are better and worse ways to present one's self, and that you prefer to present yourself in a better fashion. Why? It's at least partially because people think better of you for it.

Yes, everyone has worth as a human being, and no one's advocating that we show open contempt for people who dress in worse ways, but that doesn't mean it's wrong to give more respect to people who dress in better ways. You understand that, or you wouldn't be concerned about presenting yourself well.

Alphamale, it comes down to this... and I will refer back to your earlier post when you said you wouldn't encourage your daughters to dress in skimpy outfits. 

Of course, teaching our children to present themselves well and dress appropriately for the occasion is a good thing. But if your daughter went out one night with a super short skirt on, or if your son went out in a tight, see-through wife beater.... would you say they should be treated as sexual objects, or as lesser humans than they otherwise would? I'm not saying whether or not it would inevitably happen in our fallen world, I'm asking whether or not you think it should. 

If your answer is no, we are in agreement in regards to the OP's question in this thread, in the way he meant it. If not, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Sure. You seem to think that clothes just randomly fall on people. The fact is that when people dress provocatively, they generally want to be treated as a sex object to some extent. We're sexual beings. When my wife wears lingerie, she wants to be treated as a sex object, and I happily oblige - yet neither one of us feels as if she's being treated as a lesser human being. 

Unless someone has some serious issues, it's not wrong to treat them in the way that they want to be treated. Lots of good relationships started out as superficial attractions. If my daughter dressed to draw such attention, I would hope that she would then try to weed out those who were solely sexually motivated, but it wouldn't be wrong for the men to have sexual interest.

Did you never dress a certain way to catch a man's eye? When it worked, are you saying that he shouldn't have been physically attracted?

Many people find themselves dressing more conservatively when they're married or in a serious relationship. That's because they no longer want to draw attention.

(September 16, 2016 at 3:22 pm)alpha male Wrote: Sure. You seem to think that clothes just randomly fall on people. The fact is that when people dress provocatively, they generally want to be treated as a sex object to some extent. We're sexual beings. When my wife wears lingerie, she wants to be treated as a sex object, and I happily oblige - yet neither one of us feels as if she's being treated as a lesser human being. 

Unless someone has some serious issues, it's not wrong to treat them in the way that they want to be treated. Lots of good relationships started out as superficial attractions. If my daughter dressed to draw such attention, I would hope that she would then try to weed out those who were solely sexually motivated, but it wouldn't be wrong for the men to have sexual interest.

Did you never dress a certain way to catch a man's eye? When it worked, are you saying that he shouldn't have been physically attracted?

Many people find themselves dressing more conservatively when they're married or in a serious relationship. That's because they no longer want to draw attention.

I'm not talking about treating someone as though you are attracted to them. There's a difference between that, and treating them as a sexual object and thus, as lesser people... which is the context the OP is meant in. You know that.

(September 16, 2016 at 3:27 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: There's a difference between that, and treating them as a sexual object and thus, as lesser people...

I disagree with your view that treating a person as a sex object is necessarily treating them as a lesser human being. There are legitimate contexts for doing so. The naked woman is much more likely to be in such a context than the woman in the burka.

Now you tell me - do you think every person deserves the exact same amount of respect, regardless of what they choose to wear? Recall the white supremacist example...

Also, do you agree that there are some manners of dressing that are more likely to result in a woman being viewed as a sex object than others?

(September 16, 2016 at 3:37 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(September 16, 2016 at 3:27 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: There's a difference between that, and treating them as a sexual object and thus, as lesser people...

I disagree with your view that treating a person as a sex object is necessarily treating them as a lesser human being. There are legitimate contexts for doing so. The naked woman is much more likely to be in such a context than the woman in the burka.

I guess it depends on semantics and what exactly you mean by treating someone as a sex object. The way I see it, if you treat someone as though they were an object rather than as a person, you are, by definition, treating them as lesser.

(September 16, 2016 at 3:43 pm)alpha male Wrote: Now you tell me - do you think every person deserves the exact same amount of respect, regardless of what they choose to wear? Recall the white supremacist example...

Respect as a human being, yes. Being a bad person, or wearing some sort of hateful message, doesn't take away someone's humanity... or their right to be treated as such. 

This doesn't mean I'll address a man who approaches me in the street wearing a policeman uniform the same way I'll address a man who approaches me in the street wearing a regular t shirt and shorts, for example. As I said before, and as the OP confirmed, this is not the context of his question.  

(September 16, 2016 at 3:45 pm)alpha male Wrote: Also, do you agree that there are some manners of dressing that are more likely to result in a woman being viewed as a sex object than others?

Sure, we live in a fallen world after all where people will often mistreat others based on many things, including treating a woman in a disrespectful or objectifying manner because she is showing more skin. The question is about whether or not we should treat them that way. If your answer is yes, then, as I said before, we will just have to agree to disagree. I don't think either one of us will be convinced by the other's views on this.

(September 16, 2016 at 4:17 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Respect as a human being, yes. Being a bad person, or wearing some sort of hateful message, doesn't take away someone's humanity... or their right to be treated as such. 

That's it then. I disagree. Personally I'm not going to treat white supremacists with as much respect as I do most people. If you want to, that's your business.