(May 30, 2011 at 10:56 pm)tackattack Wrote: way off rev.

Who? Me?

What was I way off on?

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(May 30, 2011 at 11:28 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(May 30, 2011 at 10:59 pm)Cinjin Cain Wrote: Always annoying...
Christians claiming Deists are one of them. It's so painfully insulting. Thank you Rev and Min for helping to set them straight.

Its GOOD having atheists for friends.

If you are refering to my post then you should do as I asked rev.j., Washington was a devoted christian. If I after reading material on Washington had even thought he might be a deist I would not say he was a christian. As for Jefferson he's not a christian and Franklin probably not, none of this matters though they all supported the rights to belief and faith.

I never said that I knew for a fact Washington was a deist. What I posted about him is how I view what he believed...he was on and off about religion, like many millions of other modern day believers. Many considered that he was a deist, because deists were usually the dominant members of the Freemasons at the time. George Washingtons rank was Grand Master of the Alexandria Lodge No. 22 of Virginia. I have NEVER spoken to an intolerant Freemason in my life. Most of them dont even care much for religion (and thus why deism is so prevailent in its walls). One does not make the rank of Grand master being an intolerant evangelical, as modern day right wing fundies try to paint George Washington as. The Freemasons have their doors open to ALL believers in god, from deist to christian to hindu to Muslim.

Me, personally. I think Washington shifted back and forth between light and moderate faith. Did he believe? Im sure he did. Was he an evangelical? Fuck no. Was he a deist? maybe. Was he a Christian? More than likely. Was he a Christian like YOU are a Christian? Definitely not. One can be a Christian with deistic tendencies. Can a person be a Christian and NOT believe in the divinity of Jesus..that he was just a man?

Now..lets talk about how George Washington "OWNED" over 300 humans at the time of his death as his "personal property".

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(May 31, 2011 at 12:02 am)RAD Wrote:

(May 30, 2011 at 3:00 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: LMFAO..the founding fathers were talking all of the religious crap in front of the voters, but behind closed doors they were sending letters to each other ragging on Christianity, and religion in general..Thomas Jeffer

They ragged on Christianity, and praised Jesus himself almost to a man. You are either ignorant or purposefully leaving out a critical half of the truth.

Do you even know all the things Jefferson said about Jesus himelf? If you were even close to right, they wouldn't have publically shunned Paine for Age of Reason. Franklin told him nnot to publish it.

So..when Obama says he is a Christian on television then you automatically believe that he is a Christian, just like you? How about all of those "liberal" politicans who talk about god and Jesus? That makes them the same kind of Christian you are right? Because that is what you are saying to me. Many people, including the deists themselves tried to talk Paine out of publishing his novel, more than likely for fear of his life knowing that the extremists, such as yourself, would get blood lust over such writtings.

Now..what is it that you dont understand about a politician looking at the crowd and saying what he thinks they want to hear?


I dont worship the founding fathers like you do. I can see through their baloney. I can see that when they were adressing peasants that they would speak of Jesus to garner votes... when they addressed the Masons they spoke of "the great architect", and when they addressed deists the mocked Jesus.

Why cant you understand that this is evidence of typical politics... people saying what they think you want to hear...just like we have today.

Every nice thing Jefferson said about Jesus, I could easily dig up another from Jefferson that claimed he was nothing more than mythology.

Rev - 2
RAD - 0

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(May 31, 2011 at 12:02 am)RAD Wrote: He also wrote an advertisement for America, claiming there were no atheists in America. BTW Washington said an atheist could not be a patriot in his second inaugural (as I recall), a statement which is surprisingly true since America without god is not really America, and the founders' greatest fear was that America would becme godless.

Here is his 2nd address:

Quote:Fellow Citizens:

I AM again called upon by the voice of my country to execute the functions of its Chief Magistrate. When the occasion proper for it shall arrive, I shall endeavor to express the high sense I entertain of this distinguished honor, and of the confidence which has been reposed in me by the people of united America. 1
Previous to the execution of any official act of the President the Constitution requires an oath of office. This oath I am now about to take, and in your presence: That if it shall be found during my administration of the Government I have in any instance violated willingly or knowingly the injunctions thereof, I may (besides incurring constitutional punishment) be subject to the upbraidings of all who are now witnesses of the present solemn ceremony.

The shortest in history. No mention of atheism, seeing that he and the founding fathers insisted that "no religious tests" should be enshrined in the constitution, much to the dismay of modern evangelicals who want to force their beliefs on everyone.

I think you are mistaking George Washington for George HW Bush

Bush (not shrub the jr.) Wrote:According to the January 12, 2005, Washington Times:[9]

"Mr. Bush told editors and reporters of The Washington Times yesterday in an interview in the Oval Office that many in the public misunderstand the role of faith in his life and his view of the proper relationship between religion and the government.
"'I think people attack me because they are fearful that I will then say that you're not equally as patriotic if you're not a religious person,' Mr. Bush said. 'I've never said that. I've never acted like that. I think that's just the way it is.'"

So..yeah..you are an idiot.

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George Washington Wrote:5.If they are good workmen, they may be from Asia, Africa or Europe; they may be Mahometans, Jews, Christians of any sect, or they may be Atheists.... [George Washington, to Tench Tighman, March 24, 1784, when asked what type of workman to get for Mount Vernon, from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover]

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George Washington Explaining how the first Amendment and "no religious tests for office", and the seperation of church and state works Wrote:8.As the contempt of the religion of a country by ridiculing any of its ceremonies, or affronting its ministers or votaries, has ever been deeply resented, you are to be particularly careful to restrain every officer from such imprudence and folly, and to punish every instance of it. On the other hand, as far as lies in your power, you are to protect and support the free exercise of religion of the country, and the undisturbed enjoyment of the rights of conscience in religious matters, with your utmost influence and authority. [George Washington, to Benedict Arnold, September 14, 1775 from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover]

(May 30, 2011 at 10:59 pm)Cinjin Cain Wrote: Its GOOD having atheists for friends.

SUCH a kiss ass

Do I get a badge - none of those apply

ARRRGGHHHHH..Everything is "SAERULES!!"

[i]

(May 31, 2011 at 1:57 am)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient allies.
-- James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments

Yeah, asshole. Madison thought the world of fucking religion!


As for Lincoln....

Quote:"Mr. Lincoln's maxim and philosophy were: 'What is to be, will be, and no prayers of ours can arrest the decree.' He never joined any Church. He was a religious man always, I think, but was not a technical Christian."
-- Mary Todd Lincoln in William Herndon's Religion of Lincoln

I think his wife probably knew him better than your unnamed sources...which like most religious horseshit is simply made up.

Um, well actually my quote is from Mary Todd Lincoln as well.

You missed the part of Madison's Memorial and Remonstrance where he says the world lay in darkness for the want of the Gospel revelation, and in fact what he is saying is that paying religious teachers will hinder the spread of the Gospel. You completely missed the point because you aren't that interested in his point I must assume.

Washington's letter to the Delaware Indians is well known. Jefferson's quote about Christianity being "friendliest to liberty, science and the freest expansion of the human mind" is well known. I gave the source for my Madison quote. They are all easily googled by those actually interested in the truth.

In fact, since I make a distinction between the Baby and the dirty Christian bathwater, I think much more like the founders than you do I'm afraid. They never said anything bad about the Gospels or Jesus and they never made the logically silly error of saying "Christianity is bad, therefore the founder is at fault."

Here is a link to Madison's Remonstrance: http://www.has.vcu.edu/soc/rdr/Culture.g...istory.pdf

My search fails to find any reference to the word "gospel" in it. I think you are reading something from that idiot Barton who likes to make shit up so religious assholes feel better.

Not that much could save you.

Quote:"We have staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments."
-- Complete Fabrication; sentiments not found in any known Madison writings and "inconsistent with everything we know about Madison's views on religion and government," say noted Madison historians

This is a complete fabrication that dates back to the 1950s. A variation of this fabrication -- and there are several -- was read into the Congressional Record by Representative Dannemeyer on October 7, 1992. Another variation was later read into the Congressional Record by Florida Representative Scarborough on March 5, 1997, in defense of Judge Roy Moore's practice of posting a condensed version of the Protestant variant of the first tables of stone rendition of the Hebrew Decalogue on his courtroom wall, in full view of the Jury Box containing what would otherwise have been an impartial jury. Scarborough used this fabrication long after David Barton, its most vehement proponent, had declared the alleged quotation "false" and had asked people to stop using it (see Rob Boston's 1996 article "Mything in Action: David Barton's 'Questionable Quotes'").

The fabrication appears on page 120 of David Barton's stunningly popular book The Myth of Separation. In the footnote, Barton cites:

"Harold K Lane, Liberty! Cry Liberty! (Boston: Lamb and Lamb Tractarian Society, 1939) pp. 32-33. See also Fedrick Nyneyer, First Principles in Morality and Economics: Neighborly Love and Ricardo's Law of Association (South Holland Libertarian Press, 1958), pp. 31."

Unfortunately for Barton's cause (and for his credibility as a man of truthfulness), John Stagg and David Mattern, editors of The Papers of James Madison issued the following statement concerning this misquotation:

"We did not find anything in our files remotely like the sentiment expressed in the extract you sent us. In addition, the idea is inconsistent with everything we know about Madison's views on religion and government, views which he expressed time and time again in public and in private." (Letter dated November 23, 1993, to which the editors refer all who inquire about this falsehood.)

(May 31, 2011 at 8:15 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: ARRRGGHHHHH..Everything is "SAERULES!!"

You are Saerules!

@Saerules - no you're saerules

@rev- About which three were in accordance with my beliefs

(May 31, 2011 at 3:30 pm)FaithNoMore Wrote:

(May 31, 2011 at 1:56 pm)Godschild Wrote: ...I care that most of these men were christians because it did influnce the way our constitution was written and I thank God for calling them to this great task. No matter how much you desire that this country not be founded on christian principles IT WAS.

Is that why god allowed them to break sixth commandment when colonizing the americas? Or was that because they were only killing dirty red Indians, which can hardly be considered human anyway? If you believe that God had anything to do with the founding of this country, then he is responsible for the blood thirsty genocide of nearly an entire race. Then again, you Christians have never had a problem with that, as long as it wasn't against good, white, Christian men. So if applying the sixth commandment to only those you deem worthy of life is Christian principles, then by all means, take credit for it.

It's a cold hard fact this country was founded on the blood of the Native Americans, so god is either a racist or had nothing to do with it. Which would you prefer?

What in the world does killing Indians and setting up a constitution have to do with each other. Also why do you think God is responsible for what ignorant men do with or in their lives? The statement you made makes no sense at all. Killing the Native Americans for their land was not right and was not sanctioned by God either, you have a very twisted way of looking at things, I've heard this argument from others and they could not answer my question either.

(June 1, 2011 at 9:08 pm)Godschild Wrote: What in the world does killing Indians and setting up a constitution have to do with each other. Also why do you think God is responsible for what ignorant men do with or in their lives? The statement you made makes no sense at all. Killing the Native Americans for their land was not right and was not sanctioned by God either, you have a very twisted way of looking at things, I've heard this argument from others and they could not answer my question either.

This is not a twisted view at all, because to think that God got involved in the founding of a country, while said country was cleansing the earth of red people, seems to go against everything Christians claim their God stands for. Since the founding of this country was bathed in blood, why would God have any part of it? I think it's funny that you think god would help people write a constitution while they were in the middle of wiping out an eitire race of people from the planet. Why would god, in his 'infinite wisdom,' help the building of a country founded on disobeying the sixth commandment in the most disgusting manner possible? Do you think he was really up there thinking, "Well, they've got the right idea so even though they're slaughtering an entire race that I created, I'm going to make sure they do this thing right?"

To believe God helped form the constitution and made sure that this country was founded on Christian principles, is to believe God ignored how this country got started with genocide, or to claim that the way the country was founded was applying Christian principles. And I don't know why you would think God would get involved anyway, because to quote you again...

Quote:...why do you think God is responsible for what ignorant men do with or in their lives?

I'm Saerules

And sexy