(October 26, 2016 at 2:59 am)FallentoReason Wrote:

Arkilogue Wrote:ow do you logically marry "God creates" with the 1st law of thermodynamics? (energy cannot be created nor destroyed)

God creating a universe doesn't violate any scientific law, since scientific laws live within the yet-to-be-created universe.

So magic fairy beans or special pleading all the way down?

(October 26, 2016 at 11:46 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(October 26, 2016 at 1:23 am)FallentoReason Wrote: God being god, he can make whatever proposition true. In the universe next door, the resident God said 2 + 2 would equal 5, and they tell me it's logical over there. 

No serious Christian theologian would recognize any such God.

Are you saying there could only have been one set of logical rules? The ones of this universe?

(October 26, 2016 at 2:15 pm)Arkilogue Wrote:

(October 26, 2016 at 2:59 am)FallentoReason Wrote: God creating a universe doesn't violate any scientific law, since scientific laws live within the yet-to-be-created universe.

So magic fairy beans or special pleading all the way down?

No. Just the fact you were putting the cart before the horse.

Pointless gamesmanship.  OFC there could be different rules in a different universe.  If things were different....things would be different.

However, they wouldn't be -logical- rules, because that term refers to these rules, here. Come up with your own name to refer to whatever rules you've imagined the god you've imagined plays by in whatever alternate universe you've imagined. There's simply no point in trying to steal the credibility of the term logical for the contents of your fantasies.

(October 26, 2016 at 9:48 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Pointless gamesmanship.  OFC there could be different rules in a different universe.  If things were different....things would be different.

However, they wouldn't be -logical- rules, because that term refers to these rules, here.  Come up with your own name to refer to whatever rules you've imagined the god you've imagined plays by in whatever alternate universe you've imagined.  There's simply no point in trying to steal the credibility of the term logical for the contents of your fantasies.

Why change the label? I mean to say what the term "logical" means. Its reference is the meaning I'm conveying when describing other universes. You can't push me back from wanting to grab that meaning and use it in order to construct an argument. Call it goblygoop if it makes the point get across, doesn't matter.

(October 26, 2016 at 9:42 pm)FallentoReason Wrote:

(October 26, 2016 at 2:15 pm)Arkilogue Wrote: So magic fairy beans or special pleading all the way down?

No. Just the fact you were putting the cart before the horse.

You seem to be asserting a lawless God, that intentionally creates/composes a very specific law abiding universe...ex nihilo?

(October 27, 2016 at 2:16 am)Arkilogue Wrote:

(October 26, 2016 at 9:42 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: No. Just the fact you were putting the cart before the horse.

You seem to be asserting a lawless God,

I don't see any other alternative? I'm not sure what a god that has laws governing it means. I don't think any theist would pose that as an option.

Quote: that intentionally creates/composes a very specific law abiding universe...ex nihilo?

Sure, why not?

(October 27, 2016 at 2:19 am)FallentoReason Wrote:

(October 27, 2016 at 2:16 am)Arkilogue Wrote: You seem to be asserting a lawless God,

I don't see any other alternative? I'm not sure what a god that has laws governing it means. I don't think any theist would pose that as an option.

Quote: that intentionally creates/composes a very specific law abiding universe...ex nihilo?

Sure, why not?

The alternative is a logical God of real substance that produces the Logos, unfolding all it's inherent qualities from a unified infinite state to a differentiated finite state by creating space within itself, starting "time". Our time down here.

If you have a God that can create any universe it wants, and composes this one, retaining the power to change any part of it willy nilly...it paints the subjective nature of God in a very negative light as many atheist here have been detailing.

But if you have an objective God that unfolds the space for a universe and lofts it's own inherent qualities as the forces/fields/conditions within it...then it says nothing about the subjective nature of God, the universe could have worked out no other way, it behaves naturally and orderly because it was produced naturally and orderly. It wasn't created, it was procreated. The operation is more fundamental than special mental planning.

(October 27, 2016 at 2:59 am)Arkilogue Wrote:

(October 27, 2016 at 2:19 am)FallentoReason Wrote: I don't see any other alternative? I'm not sure what a god that has laws governing it means. I don't think any theist would pose that as an option.


Sure, why not?

The alternative is a logical God of real substance that produces the Logos, unfolding all it's inherent qualities from a unified infinite state to a differentiated finite state by creating space within itself, starting "time". Our time down here.

I don't know *how* it would pragmatically create a universe, but that's beside the point.

Quote:If you have a God that can create any universe it wants, and composes this one, retaining the power to change any part of it willy nilly...it paints the subjective nature of God in a very negative light as many atheist here have been detailing.

Nowhere have I said it would change an already existing universe.

Quote:But if you have an objective God that unfolds the space for a universe and lofts it's own inherent qualities as the forces/fields/conditions within it...then it says nothing about the subjective nature of God, the universe could have worked out no other way, it behaves naturally and orderly because it was produced naturally and orderly. It wasn't created, it was procreated. The operation is more fundamental than special mental planning.

This is borderline pantheism. I don't see any reason why a god has to lay itself down as the physical laws. Having a creative god which creates something aside from itself isn't a worry. For the set of all possible universes, it has to eventually choose to make one of them, and that chosen universe is what it is.

Put another way: who's to say that a universe can't exist without gravity? Who knows, maybe there's a set of laws that creates a perfectly coherent universe that has no notion of gravity, or even Newtonian physics. Our minds are too small to even begin comprehending what that could be like, but it doesn't mean it's logically incorrect.

(October 27, 2016 at 3:32 am)FallentoReason Wrote: I don't know *how* it would pragmatically create a universe, but that's beside the point.

This is borderline pantheism. I don't see any reason why a god has to lay itself down as the physical laws. Having a creative god which creates something aside from itself isn't a worry. For the set of all possible universes, it has to eventually choose to make one of them, and that chosen universe is what it is.

Put another way: who's to say that a universe can't exist without gravity? Who knows, maybe there's a set of laws that creates a perfectly coherent universe that has no notion of gravity, or even Newtonian physics. Our minds are too small to even begin comprehending what that could be like, but it doesn't mean it's logically incorrect.

How is easy. Energetic self expression: "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word was with God" or if you prefer the Egyptian account "I am the Eternal...I am that which created the Word....I am the Word." It expressed self existence. This was a pro-creative act as the original infinite GOD(Father) forms/"Words" a new finite individuation of itself into being. The self begotten "Son of God" (God the Son). In order for the Son to exist separate from the Father space must be created between them. That is the space of the universe. This was the first act.

It also works in the lab and it's called acoustic cavitation; sounds waves in water can create a stable vacuum bubble, a void space "ex nihilo" where there was none before...just add vibration. It also produces light, look up sono-luminescence.

It also hold true to the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics: Nothing new is created (matter is just separated) and to make the space, the substance of God undergoes an equal and opposing reaction. It contracts both outwards and inwards, away from the bubble space of the universe, to it's center and periphery.

Gravity is inherent in an infinite (forever in all directions) absolute (taking up all available space) God of pure mass, pure matter.......not these 99.99999999999% non material atoms.


Look up panentheism.