"True but irrelevant". No one can prove or disprove solipsism; neither does it make any practical difference. The assumption such people make is that they have some magic key out of the vat.

Presups are the most feeble kind of apologists. You can just as easily counter with the contradictory presup position; then what? Utterly pointless. It's a desperate retreat from reality.

I tend to just counter the whole thing by asking, "Why should I care about god? What difference does it make to anything?" The only actual responses I've had is:

(a) Wouldn't it be interesting? - Sure, yeah. If you could produce anything to study.

(b) Obey or burn! - Ah, threats. Finally the truth.

Sye Ten Bruggenwhatshisface is proof that presups can reach levels of annoyingness that us mortals can only dream of.

(November 1, 2016 at 4:52 pm)Stimbo Wrote: It would, however, seem preoposterous that, were I a brain in a vat experiencing what I imagine to be reality, I could have written all the great symphonies, created all of Kubrick's work, painted all Renaissance art etc.

Exactly. The 'brain-in-a-vat' position either requires that "you" are an astonishing imaginative genius (despite, I assume, your own sense of not being one) or you are the captive victim of some incredibly elaborate Matrix-style deception. Neither position helps the presuppositionalist in the least. So one of them appealing to solipsism as some sort of gotcha question only betrays how intellectually bankrupt their position really is.

They would have no need to embarrass themselves with such foolishness if the Biblical 'evidence' was half good to begin with. Protestants resorting to bad philosophy is the 'tell' that they really aren't that confident that a cogent case can be made in favor of the Christian historical narrative based on their 'divinely inspired' holy book alone. Hence the apologists' "throw as much shit against the wall and see what sticks" gambit to supply a supposedly cumulative case for their faith.

Yes, I find the brain in a vat idea (in the widest sense) very unconvincing because such a solipsistic world would not have to contain other beings with brains identical to my own avatar in this world with brain processes which are correlated with their cpnsciousnwss and equivalent with those of my avatar.

(November 2, 2016 at 8:06 am)Alex K Wrote: Sye Ten Bruggenwhatshisface is proof that presups can reach levels of annoyingness that us mortals can only dream of.

I checked out Sye Ten debating Matt Dilahunty and he seems very arrogant and on the high end of the obnoxious spectrum. I also found who I think is the gold standard for annoying pressups. He is a fella who goes by the name "Darwins Deity", a real blessing for the atheist cause as he seems to annoy everyone he debates even his fellow Christians.

(November 1, 2016 at 2:52 pm)amygdala Wrote: Hey all and welcome,
I ran into a presuppositionilist this week.
After a bit of back and forth with him going on about how I have to use reason to justify my beliefs I got hit with this question "How do you know that you are not a brain in a vat?"
This stumped me for a few moments, then I said to him "If I am a brain in a vat then why should I believe anything you say?, why should I believe you when you tell me that some book called the bible actually exists?".
I just went on asking him for proof that he was real, God was real and the bible was real and all not just a figment of my imagination.
He started to appeal to my reason that he and the God of the bible did exist which I thought it was quite funny.
I'm sure he could have countered my clumsy response in some way but it did feel good.

How do I know I am not a brain in a vat? My college education leaves me at moments like this and my pragmatic , blue collar Yankee forebearers speak through me when  I answer " Because I am not a dumbass with too much time on my hands!". Some questions are just to stupid too waste a moment of life on. (As I type this I realize how much time I have wasted answering LilRik and GodsChild)

(November 1, 2016 at 2:52 pm)amygdala Wrote: "If I am a brain in a vat then why should I believe anything you say?

It doesn't matter whether or not your "brain is in a vat", in any case what you perceive is "real". My minor was in philosophy. In one class the professor wanted to know whether the "dream state," was the real reality or was the waking state real and how can one determine which is the real reality. I still don't know how to answer that one.

Still, it seems that the awake state seems to be the most likely of the two.

In any case it makes little difference since the perceptions will be the same regardless of the condition of the brain as long as there is some sort of devices that can detect outside phenomena and transmit those phenomena to the brain receptors.

Even if it's all "inside phenomena", as in the brain in the vat is just imagining it all, and not receiving transmissions from some "outside", the perception is the same.

(November 1, 2016 at 2:52 pm)amygdala Wrote: Hey all and welcome,
I ran into a presuppositionilist this week.
After a bit of back and forth with him going on about how I have to use reason to justify my beliefs I got hit with this question "How do you know that you are not a brain in a vat?"
This stumped me for a few moments, then I said to him "If I am a brain in a vat then why should I believe anything you say?, why should I believe you when you tell me that some book called the bible actually exists?".
I just went on asking him for proof that he was real, God was real and the bible was real and all not just a figment of my imagination.

Simple. Our brains are made of the same 'stuff' the 'real' is made of. That our senses are lying to us is semi-solipism.

(November 1, 2016 at 2:52 pm)amygdala Wrote: Hey all and welcome,
I ran into a presuppositionilist this week.
After a bit of back and forth with him going on about how I have to use reason to justify my beliefs I got hit with this question "How do you know that you are not a brain in a vat?"
This stumped me for a few moments, then I said to him "If I am a brain in a vat then why should I believe anything you say?, why should I believe you when you tell me that some book called the bible actually exists?".
I just went on asking him for proof that he was real, God was real and the bible was real and all not just a figment of my imagination.
He started to appeal to my reason that he and the God of the bible did exist which I thought it was quite funny.
I'm sure he could have countered my clumsy response in some way but it did feel good.

Brain in jars always makes me think of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC3MGqY2J7g