(November 2, 2016 at 4:20 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(November 2, 2016 at 4:08 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote: Not so unusual, because if it had remained cloudy and nothing interesting happened, then we'd have never heard about it.  Nor would we have a bunch of Catholics going on and on about what a miracle it was and the Vatican taking the three secrets seriously.  And again, it didn't happen right at the time the kids said it would, but an hour & twenty minutes later, so likely they were all standing around until something happened.

Actually the Lady was speaking in terms of solar noon. And she did appear to the children at solar noon, and then performed the miracle 20 minutes later.

Can we have a source for all these tales, mind you? I mean the details, not the event.

IMO a conspiracy theory, no matter how big or involved it is, is always more plausible than the alternative of magic. Because it is earthly and known to be possible by known physical laws etc, however seemingly unlikely. So theists scoff at conspiracy theories, but they're still infinitely more probable, and thus rational, than magic as the answer.

(November 2, 2016 at 4:30 pm)RozKek Wrote:

(November 2, 2016 at 4:18 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: But all the thousands of people it did happen to, had it happen at the exact same time. Which just so happened to be the time scheduled by the kids. And not a single one of them was like "yeah you know, I think I saw some weird lighting and some movement but it could have just been an illusion due to my tired eyes and bright lights." No one said that. You would think that's the first thing one of the skeptics would have said. Whatever happened had to have been convincing enough that no one who saw it questioned it as merely a hallucination or optical effect.

Because they were told to look at the fuckin' sun maybe?? maybe that's why it happened at the same time? just mby?? Do you think they really knew that staring into the sun could cause such ocular effects?? Oh yes, of course, they were like "EVERYONE WHO STARTS SEEING MAD SUN SHIT RAISE YOUR HANDS" and everyone literally raised their hands at the exact same time, but they definitely didn't stare into it for many minutes which is definitely not enough to cause such ocular effects.

Um, calm down son. You don't have to believe it if you don't want to. I'm just explaining why I think it's convincing to me, and I think it's interesting to talk about. No reason to get your panties in a bunch just because we don't agree on this being a miracle.

(November 2, 2016 at 4:18 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(November 2, 2016 at 4:04 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote: I was being a bit snarky.  The reason some people "see" these "miracles" can easily be explained by the mass hysteria and ocular effects of staring at the sun.  Not everyone is going to stare at the sun at exactly the same time for the same length of time, so obviously not everyone would do it long enough for their eyes to start going screwy.

But all the thousands of people it did happen to, had it happen at the exact same time. Which just so happened to be the time scheduled by the kids. And not a single one of them was like "yeah you know, I think I saw some weird lighting and some movement but it could have just been an illusion due to my tired eyes and bright lights." No one said that. You would think that's the first thing one of the skeptics would have said. Whatever happened had to have been convincing enough that no one who saw it questioned it as merely a hallucination or optical effect.

How do you explain the many people that were there, that did not see a thing?

Some of them were believers.

(November 2, 2016 at 4:35 pm)Emjay Wrote: IMO a conspiracy theory, no matter how big or involved it is, is always more plausible than the alternative of magic. Because it is earthly and known to be possible by known physical laws etc, however seemingly unlikely. So theists scoff at conspiracy theories, but they're still infinitely more probable, and thus rational, than magic as the answer.

I just don't see how a conspiracy like that could have been pulled off, as I explained to Poca. 

If I wasn't religious at all... actually, let's say I'm apathetic. 

If I was apathetic to religion in general, I would still at the very least think a conspiracy theory that panned out like that would be equal to or more unlikely than an actual supernatural occurrence having happened.

(November 2, 2016 at 4:38 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(November 2, 2016 at 4:18 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: But all the thousands of people it did happen to, had it happen at the exact same time. Which just so happened to be the time scheduled by the kids. And not a single one of them was like "yeah you know, I think I saw some weird lighting and some movement but it could have just been an illusion due to my tired eyes and bright lights." No one said that. You would think that's the first thing one of the skeptics would have said. Whatever happened had to have been convincing enough that no one who saw it questioned it as merely a hallucination or optical effect.

How do you explain the many people that were there, that did not see a thing?

Some of them were believers.

That's the thing about miracles. God does not grant everyone the gift of witnessing them.

Never underestimate the human capacity for self-delusion, or the orchestration and manipulation thereof. Take a group of people who may already be eager to be part of something other (and in this kind of case, the more really is the merrier, since the group is self-reinforcing), prime them that they're actually going to experience something, and I'd be most surprised if at least a majority percentage don't see anything. What would the odds rise to if you direct them to some action geared to distort their perception; say, staring at the Sun for several minutes?

(November 2, 2016 at 4:18 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: But all the thousands of people it did happen to, had it happen at the exact same time. Which just so happened to be the time scheduled by the kids. And not a single one of them was like "yeah you know, I think I saw some weird lighting and some movement but it could have just been an illusion due to my tired eyes and bright lights." No one said that. You would think that's the first thing one of the skeptics would have said. Whatever happened had to have been convincing enough that no one who saw it questioned it as merely a hallucination or optical effect.

It happened at the same time because didn't one of the children yell out to look at the sun?  They likely all stood there staring at the sun wondering what they were supposed to see when it started affecting their eyes.  And as soon as a few people started saying that the sun was dancing in the sky, other people hoping for a miracle likely would have convinced themselves that they were seeing the same thing.  Because that's how mass hysteria works.

The reason nobody who saw it questioned it as merely a hallucination or optical effect is likely due to the fact that most people there were very religious and superstitious.  If you're very religious and superstitious and in a crowd where thousands of people start claiming they are witnessing a miracle, you're likely not going to pipe up and tell them they're just hallucinating.  It's hard enough to convince gullible Christians that Jesus really didn't appear on a slice of toast and what they're seeing is pareidolia.

(November 2, 2016 at 4:47 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Never underestimate the human capacity for self-delusion, or the orchestration and manipulation thereof. Take a group of people who may already be eager to be part of something other (and in this kind of case, the more really is the merrier, since the group is self-reinforcing), prime them that they're actually going to experience something, and I'd be most surprised if at least a majority percentage don't see anything. What would the odds rise to if you direct them to some action geared to distort their perception; say, staring at the Sun for several minutes?

I just think all the details surrounding the event, combined, makes it very convincing. I think it's hard to explain how so many ppl had the same illusion at the same time and lasted the same length of time... which wasn't even the time they thought it was supposed to happen. They thought it was supposed to happen at noon of the country's time, it wasn't until afterwards that they figured out the Lady was talking about solar noon, not the country's time of noon. If it was purely psychological, wouldn't it have happened when they expected it to? Sometimes the light does weird things to my eyes too... but I can tell when it's doing that. Most people can tell when they're seeing an optical illusion. Also, it wasn't just the sun visual. It was also the drying up of clothes and puddles so quickly.

Let me change tack for a moment. Let's just say that it was proved conclusively that this trult happened the way it's said to have. Let's say that either the Sun, or something that witnesses believed to have been the Sun, really did perform in that peculiarly eccentric way. No doubt at all for its being an actual historical event.

There's still a yawning abyss a thousand miles wide between that as an unexplained phenomenon and 'therefore a miracle from God'. How does the one possibly convince anyone of the other?