Even if we worked off the assumption that it was "good" to suffer for higher goals, that wouldn't make any direct transference to religion, lending it some sort of authenticity, unless it was a "higher goal"...and from where I sit, it's in the gutter, not the loft.  

Meanwhile, if you wanted to suffer for "higher goals"...I'm sure you could find more than a few worthy causes laying around. Personally, I don;t have a problem with service. I;ve served and suffered for it. I still suffer for it. I will for the rest of my life. So this notion of yours as regards why people don't like religion or the gods of religion...probably not true. Certainly not, in my case.

You could just -ask- me why, for example, I couldn't and wouldn't be a christian, rather than parrot a tired god-bothering line about defiance and unsuitability for service or pain, lol. Meanwhile, the christers don't seem to think that believing in their god is painful, quite the opposite. It's uplifting. It helps them to -overcome- pain. I'm finding it difficult to see how you could even be close to right on this from any angle.

(November 5, 2016 at 1:44 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Even if we worked off the assumption that it was "good" to suffer for higher goals, that wouldn't make any direct transference to religion, lending it some sort of auithenticity, unless it was a "higher goal"...and from where I sit, it's in the gutter, not the loft.  

Meanwhile, if you wanted to suffer for "higher goals"...I'm sure you could find more than a few worthy causes laying around.  Personally, I don;t have a problem with service.  I;ve served and suffered for it.  I still suffer for it.  I will for the rest of my life.  So this notion of yours as regards why people don't like religion or the gods of religion...probably not true.  Certainly not, in my case.

You could just -ask- me why, for example, I couldn't and wouldn't be a christian, rather than parrot a tired god-bothering line about defiance and unsuitability for service or pain, lol.  Meanwhile, the christers don't seem to think that believing in their god is painful, quite the opposite.  It's uplifting.  It helps them to -overcome- pain.  I'm finding it difficult to see how you could even be close to right on this from any angle.

Strangly enough, many ex believers describe their last days in the church as "I couldnt take this level of fear, obligation and guilt anymore".

They no longer believed in the carrot, and so the stick was unbearable.  Hardly suprising, from ex-believers. When you don;t -believe- in god anymore, all that's left is that lifetime of hammered in shame and guilt...but that's not -why- they don't believe anymore. The shame and guilt was always there, while they believed...so obviously it must be something else.

You don't seem to be interested in any notion that what -you- believe about gods, religions, or religious people..or irreligious people isn't accurate. You took an opportunity to ask, and get a definitive answer for your quesion, instead, as an opppurtunity to double down on the prior stated belief. Why not ask a -believer- if they think that their beliefs are uplifting? Why not ask a non-believer whether or not your appraisal of their motivations are true? Would you rather not know?

(November 5, 2016 at 1:41 pm)purplepurpose Wrote: There could be God.

I don't see how.

Quote:And it could be the one that is described it scriptures.

Definitely not.

Quote:Its painful to believe that you are a simple servant, who must please the Master with your excellent beheviour or be afraid of hell,

Is it? I've had that belief so wouldn't know.

Quote: because of the same religious belief system you trust in. Religion offers pain and very few people decide to abandon their lifes for it.

Its not silly to suffer for good higher goals. This is what actually makes me wonder that religion is authentic even with all its flaws.

Higher goal are the things that make people blow themselves up in market squares. Those sort of higher goals can piss right off.

I get to speak to serious believers and their answer was "It hurts to do good, but this is why I want to bet my life on this ideal life religion gave me". And those idealistic pricks like to add "Join me or prepair to suffer".

Non-believers have their opinion, which I support as the right one "Living my life the way I want it is more appealing to me".

(November 5, 2016 at 2:18 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(November 5, 2016 at 1:41 pm)purplepurpose Wrote: There could be God.

I don't see how.

Quote:And it could be the one that is described it scriptures.

Definitely not.

Quote:Its painful to believe that you are a simple servant, who must please the Master with your excellent beheviour or be afraid of hell,

Is it? I've had that belief so wouldn't know.

Quote: because of the same religious belief system you trust in. Religion offers pain and very few people decide to abandon their lifes for it.

Its not silly to suffer for good higher goals. This is what actually makes me wonder that religion is authentic even with all its flaws.

Higher goal are the things that make people blow themselves up in market squares. Those sort of higher goals can piss right off.

Iraq, yemen, libya and Syria... Jihadis arent the only one who do crazy shit.

Well, I guess we'll just have to take your word that what you say is true based upon anecdotes you tell about people who conveniently agree with you, even if there's at least one person you're talking to, in thread...that obviously doesn't think you've boiled down the essence of why they're not interested in christ - or even remotely approached it..and despite the fact that it's not going to be difficult to find a christer that insists, over and over and over, that their faith is uplifting.

So now you've tripled down. I'd have to be an idiot to think, at this point, that you were interested in anything other than what you've already expressed. Carry on, in your bubble, if that's what makes -you- happy.  / shrug.

(November 5, 2016 at 2:30 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Well, I guess we'll just have to take your word that what you say is true based upon anecdotes you tell about people who conveniently agree with you, even if there's at least one person you're talking to, in thread...that obviously doesn't think you've boiled down the essence of why they're not interested in christ - or even remotely approached it..and despite the fact that it's not going to be difficult to find a christer that insists, over and over and over, that their faith is uplifting.

So now you've tripled down.  I'd have to be an idiot to think, at this point, that you were interested in anything other than what you've already expressed.  Carry on, in your bubble, if that's what makes -you- happy.  / shrug.

You might be right. I hope you are. Because religion around the world only offer pain for non-believers. And I am an apostate. I still have decent faith that their is a God, I cannot change that.

Go shop for a religion you like.  You won't have been the first, there's no shortage, and plenty of them aren't about shame or guilt or suffering. Give neo-pagan reconstructionism a look, if you can stand the smell of patchouli. Maybe flirt with the ba'hai faith? They're all about "service to humanity" and being nice - in their own way. Try a different flavor of your previous beliefs...could't have scraped the bottom of that barrel, not in a hundred lifetimes. Or maybe, and this is just off the wall, come up with your own? Decide what your own beliefs and ritual structures are, to help you feel what you desire to feel in relation to the divine? To bring that sense of the numinous into your life without the pain that you've come to associate it with.

Point is, it's not impossible, plenty of people have done it, but it;s not as if anyone can tell you what will work for you, in that regard. Gotta jump into the water and swim, even if there may be a shark here and there.

(November 5, 2016 at 2:58 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Go shop for a religion you like.  You won't have been the first, there's no shortage, and plenty of them aren't about shame or guilt or suffering. Give neo-pagan reconstructionism a look, if you can stand the smell of patchouli. Maybe flirt with the ba'hai faith? They're all about "service to humanity" and being nice - in their own way. Try a different flavor of your previous beliefs...could't have scraped the bottom of that barrel, not in a hundred lifetimes.

Or maybe, and this is just off the wall, come up with your own? Decide what your own beliefs and ritual structures would be, to help you feel what you desire to feel in relation to the divine?

I think, to aproach divine, you must pay for it painfully alot. And thats why I think religions with a "stick" dominate the world. Only trough fear "service to humanity" ideals are respected. I said I believe in a God, but I also believe that divine is too much to handle for me.