(November 12, 2016 at 10:15 am)Tonus Wrote:

(November 12, 2016 at 9:54 am)Little Rik Wrote: You start with the wrong foot so to speak.
You presume that God may harm the innocent.
You see a little girl getting hurt and you presume that God wrongly punish her.

Wrong.  You based your entire answer on something I did not say.

Our world is one where people harm each other and the only recourse is to react and punish them, but some people get away with hurting others.  You state that a better system is one that does the same thing but manages to catch everyone by settling the score after death.  Both systems do not prevent wrongdoing, they react to it.

You asked how I would improve this if I was god, and I explained that I would prevent that wrong from being done.  I didn't say god harms the innocent, I pointed out that god does not prevent it.  You then jump into your bullshit religious explanation about previous lives as if that makes it better.  Here's an idea-- if that girl had been prevented from being wicked in a previous life, then the person hurting her now could be prevented from doing so, and the world suddenly becomes a place where people do not hurt one another.  You think that a system that has produced thousands --if not millions-- of years of people hurting one another is having any sort of success in teaching them how to live in peace and love?

Your system doesn't work.  It sucks.  It's no different than a universe without a god or karma.  The fact that you seem to think that this is the best possible option because it teaches people to be peaceful and loving is a perfect example of how religious thinking warps people's minds.

You can not change the universal laws Ton.
There is the gravity, there is the positive and the negative there are so many other universal laws
including the karma law.
If you would get only the positive then everybody would be God and there would not be the need
for any creation but creation is there so there is a system that go along with this creation.
Without it there would be chaos.

After millions or billions of years that the universe exist there is no chaos so that means that the universal laws are doing their job very well.

It is all about learning Ton and the process of learning is not always smooth expecially for the slow learner.  

(November 12, 2016 at 10:34 am)Little Rik Wrote: If you would get only the positive then everybody would be God and there would not be the need
for any creation but creation is there so there is a system that go along with this creation.
Without it there would be chaos.

Listen to yourself. Let's cut to the meat of your statement: if things were only positive then there would be chaos.

That's stupid, okay? Stupid. You believe that suffering and harm is something good. That people who endure horrible experiences or horrible lives are just part of what makes the universe great. I repeat: that's STUPID. I understand that people need something to make them feel better about unfairness or injustice, but making stupid shit up is what keeps people and communities and societies from working harder to make a better world-- they are sure that things will work out in some cosmic sense after everyone dies.

It's stupid.

(November 12, 2016 at 10:40 am)Tonus Wrote:

(November 12, 2016 at 10:34 am)Little Rik Wrote: If you would get only the positive then everybody would be God and there would not be the need
for any creation but creation is there so there is a system that go along with this creation.
Without it there would be chaos.

Listen to yourself.  Let's cut to the meat of your statement: if things were only positive then there would be chaos.
That's stupid, okay?  Stupid.

It is rather stupid to blame me for something that I did not say.
When I ever said that .....................if things were only positive then there would be chaos..........???
I instead said that there would be chaos without universal laws.
Can't you get it?

Quote:You believe that suffering and harm is something good.  That people who endure horrible experiences or horrible lives are just part of what makes the universe great.  I repeat: that's STUPID.  I understand that people need something to make them feel better about unfairness or injustice, but making stupid shit up is what keeps people and communities and societies from working harder to make a better world-- they are sure that things will work out in some cosmic sense after everyone dies.
It's stupid.

Even here you blame me on things that I never said.
I never said that is good for people to ............endure horrible experiences..........
I instead said that there are universal laws that we can not change.
One of this is the karma.
Considering that these laws are there and we can not change them is much better to work in a way that
karma does not affect us.
That means that we should avoid actions that bounce back reactions to or on us.  

(November 13, 2016 at 3:35 am)Little Rik Wrote: It is rather stupid to blame me for something that I did not say.

I distilled your statement to its essence. I don't even have to explain it, the comment I quoted was pretty clear.

Quote:I never said that is good for people to ............endure horrible experiences..........
I instead said that there are universal laws that we can not change.

You asked if I had a better option if I was god, and I explained why it was better to avoid any suffering. And you've rejected the idea based on two premises:

1- that the laws of the universe are immutable, which does not apply to the hypothetical that YOU ASKED FOR.

2- that suffering is a way for people to learn to behave better, even though the implication you are making is at odds with your OP.

You are putting forth the idea that a reactive system of ensuring happiness is better than a reactive system of ensuring happiness. No, it isn't. It's the same, except that it means that a force or being or 'system' that is in place to ensure 'balance' doesn't work any better than NOT WORKING AT ALL.

And you don't seem to understand why that's stupid.

Rik, why are you here and why do you assume anyone else would want your pack of homilies? Everyone has heard all that spiritual bullshit. We just don't take it seriously.

(November 13, 2016 at 9:41 am)Whateverist Wrote: Rik, why are you here and why do you assume anyone else would want your pack of homilies?  Everyone has heard all that spiritual bullshit.  We just don't take it seriously.

Wrong once again whatever.  

There is enough evidence that many of you guys take it seriously (to different degrees).
When I started posting in this forum about 3 years ago the forum was full of statements
that suppose to bring evidence about different aspect of atheists way of thinking like......
...the consciousness is a product of the brain....once you die is all over.....there is no God.......
..we are here thanks to our previous generations and so many other UNPROVEN statements.

After I did point out to you guys that all these statement that come without evidence are
like farts you guys slow down or stop all altogether posting statements such as these and
that means that my message has gone through many heads.  

(November 13, 2016 at 9:35 am)Tonus Wrote:

(November 13, 2016 at 3:35 am)Little Rik Wrote: It is rather stupid to blame me for something that I did not say.

I distilled your statement to its essence.  I don't even have to explain it, the comment I quoted was pretty clear.

Quote:I never said that is good for people to ............endure horrible experiences..........
I instead said that there are universal laws that we can not change.

You asked if I had a better option if I was god, and I explained why it was better to avoid any suffering.  And you've rejected the idea based on two premises:

1- that the laws of the universe are immutable, which does not apply to the hypothetical that YOU ASKED FOR.

2- that suffering is a way for people to learn to behave better, even though the implication you are making is at odds with your OP.

You are putting forth the idea that a reactive system of ensuring happiness is better than a reactive system of ensuring happiness.  No, it isn't.  It's the same, except that it means that a force or being or 'system' that is in place to ensure 'balance' doesn't work any better than NOT WORKING AT ALL.

And you don't seem to understand why that's stupid.

You forgot to mention something very important that I said and that is that there would not be any scope
for God to create anything if what God create would be the same as God.
What would be the point then?
God scope for creation is to reduce his or part of his consciousness into something small or more crude
to then having to regain his total consciousness.
This process turn his or part of his consciousness into the elements that make up the universe like space,
air, light-energy, water and matter and then slowly turn that into plants, animals, humans and back to his pure consciousness.
This is his way of expressing himself.
From here considering that he create something that is not as perfect as him is obvious that there can not be only positive and everybody would be happy.
The way back to him require that there got to be struggle in the pursuit of the regain consciousness.
This is yoga.
You of course do not believe in this way and that is ok with me.
No wonder that the negative factor is so much ingrain in the mind of so many people that fail to understand how the system works.
If everybody would be positive then life on earth would be a paradise.  

(November 14, 2016 at 6:27 am)Little Rik Wrote:

(November 13, 2016 at 9:41 am)Whateverist Wrote: Rik, why are you here and why do you assume anyone else would want your pack of homilies?  Everyone has heard all that spiritual bullshit.  We just don't take it seriously.

Wrong once again whatever.  

There is enough evidence that many of you guys take it seriously (to different degrees).
When I started posting in this forum about 3 years ago the forum was full of statements
that suppose to bring evidence about different aspect of atheists way of thinking like......
...the consciousness is a product of the brain....once you die is all over.....there is no God.......
..we are here thanks to our previous generations and so many other UNPROVEN statements.

After I did point out to you guys that all these statement that come without evidence are
like farts you guys slow down or stop all altogether posting statements such as these and
that means that my message has gone through many heads.  

Maybe we realized that you were unreachable and began treating you as a common fucking loon.

Didn't think of that......, lol,......did you.

Guess what, consciousness is just the brain doing brain stuff. Once you die, that's it, it's all over. There is and has never been a god. You are here because your mother and father rammed their organs into each other, no matter how much you don;t like to think about it. Thanks for making a shortlist of things that imperil your worldview for me. The last one is hilarious. I am willing to negotiate on that one, though. Maybe karma was punishing your parents, for kicking dogs n their previous lives, when it decreed that you would be born? All that ugly on ugly could've produced a doctor, or a lawyer....or even a decent human being. Poor fuckers, all they got was you.

(November 14, 2016 at 6:50 am)Little Rik Wrote: You forgot to mention something very important that I said and that is that there would not be any scope
for God to create anything if what God create would be the same as God.
What would be the point then?

I didn't mention it because it's irrelevant and I'm not even sure it makes sense.

If everything was positive that would not mean that everyone was God. It would just mean that God decided to make the universe that way. Nothing is out of God's reach due to his power and his ownership of creation. Therefore --and in spite of all of the convoluted explanations theists come up with-- any evil or wickedness or suffering exists either because God desires it or because God allows it. If he chooses to deal with it only after it has happened, then his approach is the same as that of imperfect and limited human beings, and it reinforces the notion that God is an invention of man who is made in our image.

(November 14, 2016 at 9:05 am)Rhythm Wrote:

(November 14, 2016 at 6:27 am)Little Rik Wrote: Wrong once again whatever.  

There is enough evidence that many of you guys take it seriously (to different degrees).
When I started posting in this forum about 3 years ago the forum was full of statements
that suppose to bring evidence about different aspect of atheists way of thinking like......
...the consciousness is a product of the brain....once you die is all over.....there is no God.......
..we are here thanks to our previous generations and so many other UNPROVEN statements.

After I did point out to you guys that all these statement that come without evidence are
like farts you guys slow down or stop all altogether posting statements such as these and
that means that my message has gone through many heads.  

Maybe we realized that you were unreachable and began treating you as a common fucking loon.

Didn't think of that......, lol,......did you.

Guess what, consciousness is just the brain doing brain stuff.  Once you die, that's it, it's all over.  

But don't take our word for it Rik.  Go ahead, prove us wrong.