(November 18, 2016 at 3:21 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I agree that you shouldn't vote for someone who doesn't represent your values just because you think they're "less bad" than the other. 

Can you at least appreciate that it's less bad to vote for an undesirable candidate who never attacked minorities as being something inferior, something to be afraid of, endorsed by the KKK, than it is for voting for a candidate more or less running his entire campaign on inciting the most primitive instincts humanity has to offer?

I think she might have made it too personal to allow any hint of impropriety, Abaris...it's her Daddy, after all.  That's been the schtick this entire time, lol. Daddy's a good man, not a racist, and not aiding and abetting racism. How dare anyone say or imply such things about her daddy. They should be ashamed.

Faith No More Wrote:

Mister Agenda Wrote:Your disapproval of them will not bring the Senate one vote closer to turning blue in 2018.

So what, we ignore it all and just try to pretend that they didn't vote in authoritarian racist?

Mister Agenda Wrote:Democrats understanding Rust Belt economic concerns and at least sympathizing with them will get more votes back in formerly blue states than railing against 3rd Party voters and calling everyone who voted for Trump a racist. However satisfying and effortless the latter may be. We should be thinking about how to get the ones who are reachable on our side, not how to alienate them further.

I'm not doing it to try to bring them to the other side.  I'm not a democrat.  I'm doing it because so many Trump supporters are afraid to admit that they just handed the keys to the white house to racist.  Just watch 'em bend over backwards here on this very board to avoid acknowledge that.  I'm giving them a reality check.

The second quote answers the strawman of your first comment.

I'm not a democrat, either.

Faith No More Wrote:

Mister Agenda Wrote:Your disapproval of them will not bring the Senate one vote closer to turning blue in 2018. Democrats understanding Rust Belt economic concerns and at least sympathizing with them will get more votes back in formerly blue states than railing against 3rd Party voters and calling everyone who voted for Trump a racist. However satisfying and effortless the latter may be. We should be thinking about how to get the ones who are reachable on our side, not how to alienate them further.

What side?  I don't have a side to bring them to.  

If the dems can simply manage to nominate a good candidate that wants to address the concerns of the people and isn't in the pockets of big business and Wall Street they'd have a much better chance in 2020.  Flipping a few of those blue votes isn't going to do shit.  You need to get a candidate that will energize the base and drive them to the polls.

The not Trump side. Are you sure you don't have a side?

Flipping a sufficient number of votes will do shit.

MA,you've consistently used possessives in seeming reference to the dems side, right...lol?  If someone thought you were dem, it probably has to do with you giving them many reasons to think that. Just look at the text you quoted, your own text, in the portion where you informed us hat you weren't a dem. Not really an issue of contention, but still kind of amusing.

(November 18, 2016 at 9:11 am)Rhythm Wrote: Accidental racists?  LOL  I'm already familiar with the phenomena.  Somebody says or does something blatanly racists and then says "what was racist about that?"  Well ofc they're oblivious, they're fucking racists.  

I'm not tarnishing anyone Nap, they're the ones who cast that vote.   As I keep saying, if the bad thing™ is pointing out racism, rather than being racist...I don't care.  I'm going to do it anyway, no matter how much you or any given racist whines about it.

No, not 'accidental racists'. Not racists full stop.

Your equation here is that anyone voting for Trump is validating racism by casting their vote for him. The reality is not anywhere near this black and white, pardon the pun.

I mean I could similarly say anyone who voted for Hillary is OK with corruption, assassination, money laundering etc and thus validates all of these things. But you and me both know that would be stupid. You're not applying the same standards here. There's a myriad of reasons why someone might vote the way they did and to just ignore them all and brand everyone racists just seems the epitome of irresponsibility. It does nothing more than further the divide.

By denigrating anyone who voted for Trump as a racist, you're 1. devaluing the use of the term racist to the point where nobody even pays attention to it anymore and 2. intentionally misrepresenting and ignoring the reasons why people would/could have voted. Do you honestly believe it is more constructive to call all Trump supporters racist than to actually acknowledge that the reasons many voted for him had precisely fuck all to do with race?

And yeah, you are tarnishing these people. It really makes you a hypocrite to come out with stereotypical bigotry of this nature. Ain't that irony.

(November 18, 2016 at 4:15 pm)Napoléon Wrote: No, not 'accidental racists'. Not racists full stop.

Not racists that voted for a racist candidate who openly campaigned on a racist ticket, full stop.  Hmn, to me, that just doesn't add up.  You;re certainly free to continue extending the benefit of the doubt, if you like.  I don't.  

Quote:Your equation here is that anyone voting for Trump is validating racism by casting their vote for him. The reality is not anywhere near this black and white, pardon the pun.

Meh, seems to be.  If putting the racist and his racist ideology into the whitehouse isn;t validation, I don't know what could be?  Elect him to the status of christ and savior?  Some seem to have done that too, lol.

Quote:I mean I could similarly say anyone who voted for Hillary is OK with corruption, assassination, money laundering etc and thus validates all of these things.

I would say that. (assassination, though? hadn't heard of that one yet, care t inform....morbid curiosity)

Quote:But you and me both know that would be stupid. You're not applying the same standards here. There's a myriad of reasons why someone might vote the way they did and to just ignore them all and brand everyone racists just seems the epitome of irresponsibility. It does nothing more than further the divide.

I;m not applying the same standards?  Really?  

Quote:By denigrating anyone who voted for Trump as a racist, you're 1. devaluing the use of the term racist to the point where nobody even pays attention to it anymore and

The racists already don't pay attention, unless they feel the need to deflect, which...since the election, is diminishing.  

Quote:2. intentionally misrepresenting and ignoring the reasons why people would/could have voted.

No, I accept the many things that people would trade for racist ideology, as I've made plainly clear. In my book, it's just that this is pretty damned racist. Not difficult to understand. You can certainly disagree, but it shouldn't be an impenetrable mystery.

Quote:Do you honestly believe it is more constructive to call all Trump supporters racist than to actually acknowledge that the reasons many voted for him had precisely fuck all to do with race?

What things might those be?  Why do you think it matters to me or that it would somehow argue against my own position...since I don't deny that such things exist, I simply point out that it doesn't matter that they do.  They were willing to buy those things by supporting racist ideology.

Quote:And yeah, you are tarnishing these people. It really makes you a hypocrite to come out with stereotypical bigotry of this nature. Ain't that irony.

I'm not the one that voted Trump, I didn't hold their hand to the ballot and make them put their mark by that candidate. They tarnished themselves, though for many it's not tarnish at all, but a badge of pride.

 If you and I were walking down th street and we saw a blue piece of paper laying on the ground...and I said "Hey, look at that blue piece of paper".....it would be a little silly of you to respond with "you made that paper blue!".  

Rhythm Wrote:Like I already told you, pointing out that others are bigoted doesn't make me feel swell.  It makes me feel disgust for our shared humanity.  They are, after all, my fellow americans. I have some deeply racist family members who I love and would defend as well.  I have bigoted little urges and ticks of my own...it's not as if I can escape them, lol...product of my environment.  As I told you, I don't require a high horse, and don;t possess a high horse...so how much do you think self righteousness is worth...to me...lol?  It simply doesn't -matter- to me whether I'm right, or the racists are right.  Good luck having that argument with them in any case.

I can only go by what you post. You seem to really like posting about how racist Trump voters are, despite not caring whether they're right or not.

The definition of bigot includes not being able to change your mind on the topic in question. By that definition, not all racists are bigots. The ones that aren't can learn better. I live in South Carolina. I've had successes with this conversation...when I can remember to have a conversation instead of an argument. I certainly have an easier time with a good natured young white man who has been fed a lot of false information than with any of the alt.right crowd....but I think a lot of alt-righters started as misinformed young white men who could have been reached if someone had that conversation sooner. I used to be one of those misinformed but well-intentioned young white men...and if I hadn't had minority friends to give me a very kind and gentle reality check, there's no telling how far down the rabbit hole I might have gone. When I enter 'black on white crime' into Google, the first site that comes up is a racist fake news site. Hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent on feeding false narratives to people who don't have the tools to unpack what's being done to them (and also making sure they don't get those tools), and it's been a very successful (though un-united)campaign that Trump had nothing to do with and predates any inkling he was going to run for office. There's no mastermind behind it, at least not just one. Just a general recognition that you can manipulate people by making them scared into voting certain ways and buying certain stuff; and efforts that dovetail into one another and reinforce each other without an overarching design being needed. A synergy of hatefulness and fear-mongering. I'm way more angry at the manipulators than the manipulated. It may be too late for your racist aunt, but maybe not too late for your racist cousin.

Rhythm Wrote:MA,you've consistently used possessives in seeming reference to the dems side, right...lol?  If someone thought you were dem, it probably has to do with you giving them many reasons to think that.  Just look at the text you quoted, your own text, in the portion where you informed us hat you weren't a dem.  Not really an issue of contention, but still kind of amusing.

I haven't complained about anyone mistaking me for a democrat, I've just pointed out that I'm not. I'm glad you're amused.

(November 18, 2016 at 4:24 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: I can only go by what you post. You seem to really like posting about how racist Trump voters are, despite not caring whether they're right or not.

Right about what?  

Right about some other thing?  Sure, why not.  In addition to being able to be good people, loved by friends and family, and racist...they can also be right about something.  Why on earth is that even a question?

Quote:The definition of bigot includes not being able to change your mind on the topic in question. By that definition, not all racists are bigots. The ones that aren't can learn better.

You mean the exceptions that prove the rule, lol?  

Quote:I live in South Carolina. I've had successes with this conversation...when I can remember to have a conversation instead of an argument. I certainly have an easier time with a good natured young white man who has been fed a lot of false information than with any of the alt.right crowd....but I think a lot of alt-righters started as misinformed young white men who could have been reached if someone had that conversation sooner. I used to be one of those misinformed but well-intentioned young white man...and if I hadn't had minority friends to give me a very kind and gentle reality check, there's no telling how far down the rabbit hole I might have gone.

Stared into the abyss, belly of the beast sort of thing, eh?   I've already told you I don't have this ability to unracist racists...so, what can I say, I guess it's nice that some people do though I have my doubts regarding this anecdote as I have regarding any anecdote.

Quote:When I enter 'black on white crime' into Google, the first site that comes up is a racist fake news site. Hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent on feeding false narratives to people who don't have the tools to unpack what's being done to them (and also making sure they don't get those tools), and it's been a very successful (though un-united)campaign that Trump had nothing to do with and predates any inkling he was going to run for office. There's no mastermind behind it, at least not just one. Just a general recognition that you can manipulate people by making them scared into voting certain ways and buying certain stuff; and efforts that dovetail into one another and reinforce each other without an overarching design being needed. A synergy of hatefulness and fear-mongering. I'm way more angry at the manipulators than the manipulated. It may be too late for your racist aunt, but maybe not too late for your racist cousin.

There's an awfully fine line between the manipulators and the manipulated in any discussion of social or cultural mores.  We look to each other and our institutions for validation, after all.  It may not be useful for everyone to point and laugh "lolbigot", but it would be absurd to suggest that no one should or that this doesn't have value.  That voice needs to be present when we look to our left and right, searching for validation of those positions, otherwise it's absence can be and often is taken to be verification of the decency and accuracy of the position.  Just like watching a racist, who runs a racist campaign......winning the office of the presidency...on the backs of the votes of our dearest loved ones....has been.