(November 21, 2016 at 12:19 pm)Tonus Wrote:

(November 21, 2016 at 9:18 am)Little Rik Wrote: You were saying time and time again that this universe is full of imperfection and if a perfect God creates such an imperfect universe then there is no God or you consider other possibilities including the one where he doesn't exist...

I did not say that this universe is "full of imperfection."  I pointed out that a universe where people suffer unnecessarily and justice arrives too late to prevent it either does not have a god, or it has one that sucks.  You have tried to explain why this state of affairs is either necessary or preferable to one where god prevents such suffering and injustice from happening in the first place.  I have pointed out that it's a stupid explanation.

I wasn't complaining that you had dropped the discussion.  I just didn't think it was possible for you to do so.

Ton.  

1) You came at the conclusion that ..........people suffer unnecessarily............
There is no evidence that that is the case.
You do not know what these people did in previous lives therefore you should not come to such a conclusion.
Where is your evidence that people suffer unnecessary?

2) And then you say.............justice arrives too late to prevent (the suffering) ..........
If there would not be suffering there also would not be the karma and without karma there would not be any justice so your logic does not take in consideration the karma law but karma is there as confirmed by so many NDEs experiences.

Ton I just hope that you do not believe in science because also science tell us that every action require and equal and opposite reaction.

You never thought of that Ton, did you?  

(November 22, 2016 at 10:20 am)Little Rik Wrote: 1) You came at the conclusion that ..........people suffer unnecessarily............
There is no evidence that that is the case.

On the contrary, your 'evidence' that suffering is necessary is based on ideas and reasoning that are stupid.

Quote:You do not know what these people did in previous lives therefore you should not come to such a conclusion.
Where is your evidence that people suffer unnecessary?

Where is your evidence that (1)they lived previous lives and (2)that they did things in a previous life that went unpunished until their next life?

And when you're done with whatever bizarre justifications and insane explanations you call "evidence" we can discuss the stupidity of a system that perpetuates evil by not punishing it until the "next life" which requires that someone makes that person suffer and which then causes the person who delivers justice to be punished... possibly in a future life.  Say it with me, Rik... STUPID.

Quote:If there would not be suffering there also would not be the karma

So the universe is better off without karma.  Got it.

Quote:and without karma there would not be any justice so your logic does not take in consideration the karma law but karma is there as confirmed by so many NDEs experiences.

NDEs do not confirm anything about karma.  That honestly doesn't even make sense.  I'm going to ask you to explain it for the sheer entertainment value of seeing just how far down the rabbit hole your imagination can go.  Come on, Rik... dazzle me.

Quote:Ton I just hope that you do not believe in science because also science tell us that every action require and equal and opposite reaction.

Across multiple existences?  Do you even understand how Newton's Third Law works?  Please, in the interests of watching you come up with even MORE insanity, I beg you to explain how Newton's Third Law supports the notion of karmic justice.  Just give me a moment to grab the world's biggest tub of popcorn, first.

Quote:You never thought of that Ton, did you?

Of course not.  I'm not batshit insane.

(November 22, 2016 at 11:21 am)Tonus Wrote:

(November 22, 2016 at 10:20 am)Little Rik Wrote: 1) You came at the conclusion that ..........people suffer unnecessarily............
There is no evidence that that is the case.

On the contrary, your 'evidence' that suffering is necessary is based on ideas and reasoning that are stupid.

Quote:You do not know what these people did in previous lives therefore you should not come to such a conclusion.
Where is your evidence that people suffer unnecessary?

Where is your evidence that (1)they lived previous lives and (2)that they did things in a previous life that went unpunished until their next life?

And when you're done with whatever bizarre justifications and insane explanations you call "evidence" we can discuss the stupidity of a system that perpetuates evil by not punishing it until the "next life" which requires that someone makes that person suffer and which then causes the person who delivers justice to be punished... possibly in a future life.  Say it with me, Rik... STUPID.

Quote:If there would not be suffering there also would not be the karma

So the universe is better off without karma.  Got it.

Quote:and without karma there would not be any justice so your logic does not take in consideration the karma law but karma is there as confirmed by so many NDEs experiences.

NDEs do not confirm anything about karma.  That honestly doesn't even make sense.  I'm going to ask you to explain it for the sheer entertainment value of seeing just how far down the rabbit hole your imagination can go.  Come on, Rik... dazzle me.

Quote:Ton I just hope that you do not believe in science because also science tell us that every action require and equal and opposite reaction.

Across multiple existences?  Do you even understand how Newton's Third Law works?  Please, in the interests of watching you come up with even MORE insanity, I beg you to explain how Newton's Third Law supports the notion of karmic justice.  Just give me a moment to grab the world's biggest tub of popcorn, first.

Quote:You never thought of that Ton, did you?

Of course not.  I'm not batshit insane.

1) Without suffering people will keep on doing the same mistakes.
Have you ever been booked for speeding?
Have you gone slow after that or those booking?
Got it Ton?  

2) NDEs are clear evidence that there is Karma.
Read those experiences to understand how the system works.  

3) In one life time in most cases there is not enough time to experience all karma.
Take those who torture, kill or did a lot of crimes that affect a lot of people.
Some people need to be reborn again and again to pay their debt.
In one life they could not possibly pay all their debts.

4) The universe could not exist without positive and negative.
Everything get recycled time and time again.
Stars die but their energy give life to new life in the universe.
Nothing really die.
One type of energy get transformed into a different type of energy.
The balance between the positive and negative make sure that this transformation keep everything alive and well.
The karma also follow the law of positive and negative in order to keep the balance.
Most people stop doing the same mistakes BECAUSE they suffer as they went through punishment.
If there wouldn't be punishment and suffering people would keep on doing the same mistakes which ultimately would
lead to human race annihilation.

(November 23, 2016 at 10:47 am)Little Rik Wrote: 1) Without suffering people will keep on doing the same mistakes.

I find it interesting that for point (1) you use a traffic violation as the example, but for number (3) you talk about people who "torture, kill or did a lot of crimes that affect a lot of people." Do you consider these to be the same? Imagine a world where the worst crime is speeding. You really think that the present system is better, because eventually the people who torture and kill and rape will get punished in an endless loop? Because that's stupid.

Quote:2) NDEs are clear evidence that there is Karma.

No, they're not. NDEs are evidence that the brain can do funny things when it is oxygen deprived for a short time. Nothing more.

Quote:3) In one life time in most cases there is not enough time to experience all karma.
Take those who torture, kill or did a lot of crimes that affect a lot of people.
Some people need to be reborn again and again to pay their debt.
In one life they could not possibly pay all their debts.

But in point (1) you described karma as a way to help people learn from their mistakes. If karma waits until someone is in a whole new life to act, how would that person learn that torture or murder is wrong? What about the person who is used by karma to carry out this justice? What did they learn?

You define karma differently at your convenience. That's not very convincing at all.

Quote:4) The universe could not exist without positive and negative.

I have not suggested that the universe should not have negative. I am pointing out that eliminating the worst suffering is far better than punishing it after the fact and long after it would have been of use to either the perpetrator or the victim. To you, people are just numbers on a ledger that must balance regardless of how horrible their existence is. If that's karma, then it's useless and stupid. If that's god, then it's stupid and wicked. Come up with a better karma, or come up with a better god. Don't settle for something so useless and stupid.

(November 23, 2016 at 11:43 am)Tonus Wrote:

(November 23, 2016 at 10:47 am)Little Rik Wrote: 1) Without suffering people will keep on doing the same mistakes.

I find it interesting that for point (1) you use a traffic violation as the example, but for number (3) you talk about people who "torture, kill or did a lot of crimes that affect a lot of people."  Do you consider these to be the same?  Imagine a world where the worst crime is speeding.  You really think that the present system is better, because eventually the people who torture and kill and rape will get punished in an endless loop?  Because that's stupid.

1) All I did is putting examples where actions produce reactions.
You may well come to the conclusions that one example is not the same as the other.
That's ok but my intention was very very simple.
It was all about actions that produce reactions regardless of their gravity.

2) When a negative karma pop up as a reaction is bad anyway regardless his weight.

Quote:2) NDEs are clear evidence that there is Karma.

Quote:No, they're not.  NDEs are evidence that the brain can do funny things when it is oxygen deprived for a short time.  Nothing more.

Ton.  
We already went through this argument before and guess what?
The brain deprived of oxygen is in no way capable of building up an experience that is sharp and clear even after years that happened such as the NDEs one.
All a brain in that state can produce are hallucinations if ever and hallucinations are blurred visions that in a short time disappear from the mind.
You show me solid evidence that the brain in that state can produce sharp and clear experiences and I will give a truckload full of 24 carat gold.  

Quote:3) In one life time in most cases there is not enough time to experience all karma.
Take those who torture, kill or did a lot of crimes that affect a lot of people.
Some people need to be reborn again and again to pay their debt.
In one life they could not possibly pay all their debts.

Quote:But in point (1) you described karma as a way to help people learn from their mistakes.  If karma waits until someone is in a whole new life to act, how would that person learn that torture or murder is wrong?

Ton.
You don't get it, do you?  

The reason why we have consciousness and subconsciousness is because consciousness is like the part of the iceberg above the water and subconsciousness is the part below.
A sub-marine is called such because it stay under the water.
You can not see it even if you know that exist unless it pop up above the water.
Our subconscious mind is not visible but it is there and it is this big chunk of consciousness that knows
everything.
She knows all about us as it is connected to the universal consciousness but that is a long philosophical story that you at this stage in time could not possibly understand.
To make it simple the reactions that are lying in this subconscious mind will wait until the proper time come for coming out and up, emerge and producing a reaction.
As you point out it does not make sense to you on the ground that a person is unaware of the action that produce the reaction and I can understand your point in a way but if the reaction would not pop up
then it would stay in the subconscious mind for ever and that would prevent anyone progress.
It is like if you try to carry an enormous weight on and on with no end in sight.
That is why the best thing to do is to get rid of it as soon as possible even if that imply suffering.
Short term suffering is much better than long term suffering.

You never thought about that Ton, did you?

Quote:What about the person who is used by karma to carry out this justice?  What did they learn

Ton.
Karma does not use anybody.
If someone will carry out any wrongdoing then that person will incurred in bad karma for himself.
Nobody is an instrument to carry out reactions on other.
One way or an other reactions will pop up anyway even without a person that would carry them out.
Ever you ever heard of natural disasters or any other bad thing that happen naturally?

Quote:You define karma differently at your convenience.  That's not very convincing at all.

Give me an example of your accusation so I can reply to you.

Quote:4) The universe could not exist without positive and negative.

Quote:I have not suggested that the universe should not have negative.  I am pointing out that eliminating the worst suffering is far better than punishing it after the fact and long after it would have been of use to either the perpetrator or the victim.  To you, people are just numbers on a ledger that must balance regardless of how horrible their existence is.  If that's karma, then it's useless and stupid.  If that's god, then it's stupid and wicked.  Come up with a better karma, or come up with a better god. Don't settle for something so useless and stupid.

I already answer this question in one of the answer above in which I mention consciousness and subconsciousness.
Read it.

(November 25, 2016 at 8:00 am)Little Rik Wrote: 1) All I did is putting examples where actions produce reactions.

...and called it karma. Version 1: karma is the immediate outcome of one's actions.

Quote:We already went through this argument before and guess what?

Yes, I remember. You were shown numerous ways in which your claims were wrong and you clung to them. I won't re-hash that here because you're the one who brought up NDEs as being related to karma, which is nonsense. Your explanations remain wrong and therefore cannot be used to support an idea that would not work even if it was.

Quote:The reason why we have consciousness and subconsciousness is because consciousness is like the part of the iceberg above the water and subconsciousness is the part below.

Look, you can't just make up unsubstantiated bullshit about how the subconscious works and then use that to defend an idiotic premise or idea. It doesn't prove your claims, it just makes you sound like an insane person.

Quote:If someone will carry out any wrongdoing then that person will incurred in bad karma for himself.

Version 2: karma is NOT the immediate outcome of one's actions, it can build up like a points system which is cashed in by natural disasters.

Quote:Give me an example of your accusation so I can reply to you.

See your two versions of karma above.

Karma is simply the same concept of hell, it is a bullshit superstition born out of human ignorance. It really is nothing more than the reflection of our own emotions when we react to when someone harms us. In reality unfortunately humans harm each other for a variety of reasons and our species ability to be cruel can and does win sometimes. Bad things do happen to good people and the bad guy does not always get punished.

(November 25, 2016 at 10:54 am)Brian37 Wrote: Karma is simply the same concept of hell, it is a bullshit superstition born out of human ignorance. It really is nothing more than the reflection of our own emotions when we react to when someone harms us. In reality unfortunately humans harm each other for a variety of reasons and our species ability to be cruel can and does win sometimes. Bad things do happen to good people and the bad guy does not always get punished.

You miss the point Brian.  
It is true that ............. superstition(S) born out of human ignorance but what karma has got to do with superstitions?
The law of actions and reactions are also ingrained in the physical world.
Would you say that these universal laws are superstitions created by human ignorance?
And what about the gravity law and all other physical laws?
You like cherry picking Brian, do you?  

---

(November 25, 2016 at 10:50 am)Tonus Wrote:

(November 25, 2016 at 8:00 am)Little Rik Wrote: 1) All I did is putting examples where actions produce reactions.

...and called it karma.  Version 1: karma is the immediate outcome of one's actions.

Quote:We already went through this argument before and guess what?

Yes, I remember.  You were shown numerous ways in which your claims were wrong and you clung to them.  I won't re-hash that here because you're the one who brought up NDEs as being related to karma, which is nonsense.  Your explanations remain wrong and therefore cannot be used to support an idea that would not work even if it was.

Quote:The reason why we have consciousness and subconsciousness is because consciousness is like the part of the iceberg above the water and subconsciousness is the part below.

Look, you can't just make up unsubstantiated bullshit about how the subconscious works and then use that to defend an idiotic premise or idea.  It doesn't prove your claims, it just makes you sound like an insane person.

Quote:If someone will carry out any wrongdoing then that person will incurred in bad karma for himself.

Version 2: karma is NOT the immediate outcome of one's actions, it can build up like a points system which is cashed in by natural disasters.

Quote:Give me an example of your accusation so I can reply to you.

See your two versions of karma above.

1) I was shown numerous ways in which my claims were wrong..................?
Are you kidding me Ton?  
All you guys showed me or better said was that the brain is capable of create hallucinations that
are like the NDEs.
Don't you remember that I did destroyed this bullshit by SHOW you that a brain devoid of blood and oxygen can not possibly create clear and sharp visions and experiences such as NDEs experiences?
Hallucinations are blurred visions that disappear soon after not experiences that last after years and years as clear and sharp as the day that happened.
Try again Ton but this time put forward something that make some sense not trifles that make people laugh.  

2) The subconscious is a reality in us not bullshit.
Just think how many times you try to sort out a problem or to get into your mind a name or an information that you forgot.
Many times after a mental effort the information pop up from the subconscious mind.
You never thought about that Ton, did you?  
Einstein struggle days and nights and finally the theory of relativity pop up in his mind.
Where you think it came from Ton?
The consciousness is all within which it means that the outer mind collect the information-S from within
in the subconscious mind.    

3) Version 2............for God sake Ton why don't you admit that you fail instead of creating more confusion in your mind?  

(November 27, 2016 at 7:55 am)Little Rik Wrote: 1) I was shown numerous ways in which my claims were wrong..................?
Are you kidding me Ton?

No, not kidding. The ability to induce NDEs allows researchers to figure out what is happening in the brain to create them. Your claims about the clarity of memories do not square with what is known about how we create and use them. In other words, your claims regarding NDEs are at odds with actual research into the phenomenon but you refuse to let that stop you from repeating them. Since your only claims are really just bullshit, I see no need to recap that discussion and watch you parade your ignorance yet again.

And it still has nothing to do with karma.

Quote:2) The subconscious is a reality in us not bullshit.

I didn't say that-- I said your claims about how the subconscious works are bullshit. Garbage. See above-- at odds with what science has actually discovered and can verify. Made up. Nonsense. I have no obligation to treat your useless garbage as anything but useless garbage. If you have to make things up in order to try and support your claims, then your claims remain without support.

And also... nothing to do with karma.

(November 27, 2016 at 12:23 pm)Tonus Wrote:

(November 27, 2016 at 7:55 am)Little Rik Wrote: 1) I was shown numerous ways in which my claims were wrong..................?
Are you kidding me Ton?

No, not kidding.  The ability to induce NDEs allows researchers to figure out what is happening in the brain to create them.  Your claims about the clarity of memories do not square with what is known about how we create and use them.  In other words, your claims regarding NDEs are at odds with actual research into the phenomenon but you refuse to let that stop you from repeating them.  Since your only claims are really just bullshit, I see no need to recap that discussion and watch you parade your ignorance yet again.

And it still has nothing to do with karma.

Quote:2) The subconscious is a reality in us not bullshit.

I didn't say that-- I said your claims about how the subconscious works are bullshit.  Garbage.  See above-- at odds with what science has actually discovered and can verify.  Made up.  Nonsense.  I have no obligation to treat your useless garbage as anything but useless garbage.  If you have to make things up in order to try and support your claims, then your claims remain without support.

And also... nothing to do with karma.

1) I just can not believe what I see Ton.  

You seem an expert in NDEs but guess what.........even Dr. Parnia that spent endless time studying these
NDEs came to the conclusion that there is no evidence for or against them so he said that more study is needed.
But of course you are the expert so you reckon that I should believe you instead?
That is bizarre Ton.

2) One more failing Ton with your idea that karma is bull.
If you ever would have read those NDEs experiences you would have deduced that karma is there.
How?
Very simple Ton.
By reading those NDEs experiences you would have understood that God send these people back into their bodies because God say these people have more work to do before they are allow in that beautiful dimension (paradise, nirvana).
What this WORK means or is all about?
It is all about reactions that these people have to undergo before they can merge into that nirvana.
Reactions are all about karma Ton so definitively karma is there.
If these people wouldn't have any karma left they would have been allow to stay and not come back into their bodies for more time.  

You never thought about that Ton, did you?