(December 2, 2016 at 10:19 am)Ben Davis Wrote:

(December 2, 2016 at 9:01 am)Ignorant Wrote: What do you think about Catholics holding that Mary, a woman, is the closest creature to God?

Yes, Mary. The ultimate rape victim.

Did you miss the part about Gabriel asking for her consent, and Mary giving it?

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(December 2, 2016 at 10:35 am)Homeless Nutter Wrote:

(December 2, 2016 at 9:01 am)Ignorant Wrote: What do you think about Catholics holding that Mary, a woman, is the closest creature to God?

Who is a male... That clearly means - the best female is inferior to the best male. [1]

The male created the universe and humanity - even Mary herself. [2] The male sacrificed himself for the sins of humanity. The male will judge humanity and give them everlasting life - again, including Mary herself, who is only venerated, due to male's grace. [3]

The female - is a perfectly obedient recepticle/incubator, who knows how to keep her legs together. Twist it however you like it, but women are inherently inferior according to pretty much every major monotheistic religion. [4]

God without Mary is still God. Mary without god - is just some pr*ck-teasing b*tch.

1) HA! Clearly? "Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance" (Phil 2:7) If that's true, and God humbled himself as lowly as possible (i.e. as a man), couldn't it also be "clear" that God sees MEN as inferior to women?

2) That is not an adequate understanding of Christianity. Jesus's humanity had nothing to do with the creative act. In fact, Jesus's masculine humanity comes ONLY from Mary's humanity. It is a reversal of the Adam and Eve narrative.

Adam (Old Man) => Eve (Old Woman)
Mary (New Woman) => Jesus (New Man)

3) Have you heard of the titles: co-redemtrix and co-mediator of graces? It's not due to Christ's masculinity that he is worshiped and she is venerated. It is due to his DIVINITY. If anything, it explains the massive superiority complex men have had throughout the ages. While men have the same inherent worth and dignity as women, men might simply be inferior when it comes to naturally living well, and even God knew it! If he is going to redeem humanity as the weakest of humans... gotta go with the male version!   I had never thought of that before. Thanks!

4) I agree that most every religion has treated women that way in different ways and at different times. Is it inherent to their revealed understanding of humanity? I don't think so.

(December 2, 2016 at 10:19 am)Ben Davis Wrote:

(December 2, 2016 at 9:01 am)Ignorant Wrote: What do you think about Catholics holding that Mary, a woman, is the closest creature to God?

Yes, Mary. The ultimate rape victim.

You could say that she consented, in which case it's only fornication (or adultery, if the locals felt that she already belonged to Joseph). Suddenly the story in John 8 --where Jesus forgives an adulteress and spares her from the death penalty-- makes a strange kind of sense...

(December 2, 2016 at 9:01 am)Ignorant Wrote:

(December 2, 2016 at 8:51 am)Tazzycorn Wrote: Well when every utterance in a book about women is deeply misogynistic, you kind of have to take it at face value. And the religions which base themselves off that book are themselves deeply misogynistic.

What do you think about Catholics holding that Mary, a woman, is the closest creature to God?

That would be the archangel Gabriel, a male, and all the other angels behind them.

Mary was just a vessel to carry god while he gestated according to catholic theology.

(December 1, 2016 at 6:28 pm)Luckie Wrote:

(November 30, 2016 at 5:07 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

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Then I'd say that sounds like a cultural thing more than any sort of official Church teaching. If you are saying Catholic theology teaches that women are objects, the burden is on you to show the Catechism verse that states such. 

Sorry, I'mnot a Catholic so I dont know what a 'Catechism verse' is. Does this count? It's from God's own mouth.

Quote:Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion.

Sure it's in the old testament, the less regarded part of the bible, but Jesus said not a letter of OT law shall be overturned until the end of times (see my signature for reference).

No, it does not. 
When a Catholic wants to know what the catholic position is on something, we crack open the Catechism. Not the bible. And especially not the OT lol. Contrary to the protestant religions, in Catholicism, the authority of the Church comes first, before the words of the bible which are confusing and can be interpreted in many different ways. 
So yes, if you're claiming that Catholicism teaches that women are objects, you'd have to point to official Catholic doctrine that states such.

(December 2, 2016 at 12:19 pm)Tazzycorn Wrote:

(December 2, 2016 at 9:01 am)Ignorant Wrote: What do you think about Catholics holding that Mary, a woman, is the closest creature to God?

That would be the archangel Gabriel, a male, and all the other angels behind them. [1]

Mary was just a vessel to carry god while he gestated according to catholic theology. [2]

1) Angels don't have gender.

2) If that is the case, how do you understand this:

"In a wholly singular way she cooperated ... in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace." This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office ... continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix." -CCC 968-969

(December 2, 2016 at 12:27 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(December 1, 2016 at 6:28 pm)Luckie Wrote: Sorry, I'mnot a Catholic so I dont know what a 'Catechism verse' is. Does this count? It's from God's own mouth.


Sure it's in the old testament, the less regarded part of the bible, but Jesus said not a letter of OT law shall be overturned until the end of times (see my signature for reference).

No, it does not. 
When a Catholic wants to know what the catholic position is on something, we crack open the Catechism. Not the bible. And especially not the OT lol. Contrary to the protestant religions, in Catholicism, the authority of the Church comes first, before the words of the bible which are confusing and can be interpreted in many different ways. 
So yes, if you're claiming that Catholicism teaches that women are objects, you'd have to point to official Catholic doctrine that states such.

And that is why you don't argue the Bible with catholics.
The CCC is, unlike the Bible, a well thought out document. It's basically fool proof, even if it starts off with the wrong premise - there is a god.

(December 1, 2016 at 6:28 pm)Luckie Wrote:

Quote:Your comment was that women's senior most position in the Church is a flower arranger. Yes, that comment is 100% false. 

Then what is actually the ceiling for women within the Catholic church?

I don't know about "ceiling", as in which of these roles is more important. But they can be Professional Ministers, doctors at Catholic hospitals, teachers at Catholic schools, Music Director for the church, Director of Religious Education, Nuns, etc etc etc. Impossible to list all roles. But they can take on any role for the church with the exception of priests. And as I explained earlier, this isn't because we think women are objects, or somehow inferior, but because we believe that based on Jesus only choosing men as his disciples, that God created that role exclusively for men. In the same way that God created the role of carrying life and giving birth only to women. Only women can give physical life, just as only men can give spiritual life. Not because one is better than the other, and not because either one is an "object."

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(December 1, 2016 at 6:28 pm)Luckie Wrote:

(November 30, 2016 at 5:07 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Also ironically enough, my aunt's pro life stance, which stemmed from her Catholicism, is what saved my sister when she was in my teenage mom's womb. Because SHE, a woman, was/is not an object or a "thing." But a human being who deserves to stay alive.

Thats funny my mom was forced into an abortion because of her dogmatic parents' beliefs. In any case, I'm an atheist and I'm anti abortion as well. *high fives Catholic Lady

Wow. Really sorry to hear this.

I can't comment on what beliefs your grandparents had that would make them think abortion is acceptable, much less required in any situation, but that's really sad and I'm really sorry you lost your brother/sister to that.

(December 2, 2016 at 11:32 am)Ignorant Wrote: 1) HA! Clearly? "Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance" (Phil 2:7) If that's true, and God humbled himself as lowly as possible (i.e. as a man), couldn't it also be "clear" that God sees MEN as inferior to women?

Uhm, no. You're making up stuff that isn't there. First of all - is a regular human as humble a form as possible? Surely - if god took the form of a leper, a midget, a pig, a goat, a broomstick, or a genital wart - that would have been way more humbling, I imagine. But of course - you don't expect god to come as anything other than a fully fledged human, do you? And neither did the people who wrote the bible, who - let's not forget - treated women like cattle.

Your god supposedly came as a dude, not because a woman would be of too high standing for this sacrifice of his, but the exact opposite - because had he come as a female, he'd have no right to teach, or lead Jews. Had Jesus been a woman, he'd get sold off to some guy at the age of 12 and would be squirting out kids for the rest of his/her natural life.

(December 2, 2016 at 11:32 am)Ignorant Wrote: 2) That is not an adequate understanding of Christianity. Jesus's humanity had nothing to do with the creative act. In fact, Jesus's masculine humanity comes ONLY from Mary's humanity. It is a reversal of the Adam and Eve narrative.

Adam (Old Man) => Eve (Old Woman)
Mary (New Woman) => Jesus (New Man)

I have no idea what you're going on about. What do Adam and Eve have to do with this? God is a male. He's the best. Mary may be the bestest woman ever-ever - but she's still just a meat-puppet and has no powers, other than whatever the male god will allow her. Therefore - masculinity is inherently superior, according to the stories you claim to live your life by. That's the message that's been drilled into the minds of dumb people for thousands of years.

(December 2, 2016 at 11:32 am)Ignorant Wrote: 3) Have you heard of the titles: co-redemtrix and co-mediator of graces? It's not due to Christ's masculinity that he is worshiped and she is venerated. It is due to his DIVINITY.

Blah, blah, blah, magical stuff... None of this has anything to do with my point - a particularly obedient female may be the closest thing to god, as you said yourself - but she can't be a god (hell - she can't be a priest) and would be nothing, without the male in her life. You can dress it up in flowers and bullsh*t, but at the end of the day - the symbolism of this is clear. And this is why we live in a society, where women had to wait another 2000 years after Jesus, for any semblance of equality.

(December 2, 2016 at 11:32 am)Ignorant Wrote: If anything, it explains the massive superiority complex men have had throughout the ages. While men have the same inherent worth and dignity as women, men might simply be inferior when it comes to naturally living well, and even God knew it! If he is going to redeem humanity as the weakest of humans... gotta go with the male version!   I had never thought of that before. Thanks!

4) I agree that most every religion has treated women that way in different ways and at different times. Is it inherent to their revealed understanding of humanity? I don't think so.

Ugh... You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. You're simply making up your own christianity, just like pretty much every christian does. There is nothing in the bible about males being "the weakest". It's just apologetic ad hoc nonsense. This is the thing - when you're not bound by any kind of reality, or testability of your claims - not even within biblical context - you can pull explanations out of your a*se all day, massaging the barbaric religious dogma, to suit your modern sensibility.

(December 2, 2016 at 9:01 am)Ignorant Wrote:

(December 2, 2016 at 8:51 am)Tazzycorn Wrote: Well when every utterance in a book about women is deeply misogynistic, you kind of have to take it at face value. And the religions which base themselves off that book are themselves deeply misogynistic.

What do you think about Catholics holding that Mary, a woman, is the closest creature to God?

^This.

The Virgin Mary is whom we believe to basically have been the highest and most "important" (for lack of better word) Saint to ever exist. 

So um yeah... the Church does not teach that women are objects. 

Probably something something midichlorians.