(December 13, 2016 at 10:11 am)Little Rik Wrote: The point is that progress equal to what you feel inside and what you are able to take with you when you leave the dead body.

That's not how we measure progress. That's a made-up definition of progress that you think supports your beliefs. This is one of the most dishonest approaches that theists take, where they dismiss all of the methods we have of actually learning and knowing and create a "science" that isn't science. Then they can claim anything and support it with anything and demand that their made-up beliefs be tested even though they have forbidden any method that could actually be used to test them.

You're lying when you say things like that. The most charitable description would be that you're deluded, but you've had opportunity after opportunity to put your claims to the test and you cannot bring yourself to do it. You're simply not trying. Your fear of reality will not make your claims true.

(December 13, 2016 at 11:16 am)Tonus Wrote:

(December 13, 2016 at 10:11 am)Little Rik Wrote: The point is that progress equal to what you feel inside and what you are able to take with you when you leave the dead body.

That's not how we measure progress.  That's a made-up definition of progress that you think supports your beliefs.  This is one of the most dishonest approaches that theists take, where they dismiss all of the methods we have of actually learning and knowing and create a "science" that isn't science.  Then they can claim anything and support it with anything and demand that their made-up beliefs be tested even though they have forbidden any method that could actually be used to test them.

You're lying when you say things like that.  The most charitable description would be that you're deluded, but you've had opportunity after opportunity to put your claims to the test and you cannot bring yourself to do it.  You're simply not trying.  Your fear of reality will not make your claims true.

Again Ton your way of working out how the system works is very different from mine.

Your system if I got it correct is that there is only one life and during this life whatever you build up is progress.

My system on the other hand is that there is life after life until you reach the very top of human emancipation.
A bit like during the school years.
From the first year you slowly climb up until you get a degree and from here my system goes that life after life you climb up if of course you are smart enough and do not build up bad karma so to reach the top.
In this way progress is only related to what you build up within.
What you build up in the material world is left behind and because you can not take it with you when you leave your body is absolutely worthless.
God doesn't need the technology that you may build up.
He already got that knowledge.
God only concern is what you build up within and that is the effort that you make in getting close to him-her and merge in that ocean of cosmic consciousness.
All the rest is irrelevant.  

(December 14, 2016 at 8:24 am)Little Rik Wrote: Your system if I got it correct is that there is only one life and during this life whatever you build up is progress.

It's not a system, it's simply the way things are.

Quote:My system on the other hand is that there is life after life until you reach the very top of human emancipation.

And the other person's system is that you live one life in the flesh and then an eternity in heaven or hell, but heaven and hell mean different things depending on who you ask. And how you get there is different depending on who you ask. And who you meet there is different depending on who you ask. And what you will do for eternity is different depending on who you ask.

Do you know why it's so different for so many people? Because they have no way to determine which one is correct. At least a few of the people on this forum who believe in God have had experiences that make his existence either very likely or almost certain to them. Yet they don't share your view of the afterlife. Their evidence points in a direction away from your explanation of how things work. You cannot prove to them that you are right, and they cannot prove to you that they are right. Some of them may be concerned that you will spend an eternity suffering in hell, but I bet that you are not worried even a tiny bit. Because you have no way of convincing one another with actual evidence and logic.

The only thing you and they agree on is that God exists. That's it, really. Billions of people believe that, but the moment you try to add even a single belief they diverge. How can any of you claim anything about God aside from "he exists" as if you know for sure? How can you even claim it as a belief?

(December 14, 2016 at 10:00 am)Tonus Wrote:

(December 14, 2016 at 8:24 am)Little Rik Wrote: Your system if I got it correct is that there is only one life and during this life whatever you build up is progress.

It's not a system, it's simply the way things are.

Quote:My system on the other hand is that there is life after life until you reach the very top of human emancipation.

And the other person's system is that you live one life in the flesh and then an eternity in heaven or hell, but heaven and hell mean different things depending on who you ask.  And how you get there is different depending on who you ask.  And who you meet there is different depending on who you ask.  And what you will do for eternity is different depending on who you ask.

Do you know why it's so different for so many people?  Because they have no way to determine which one is correct.  At least a few of the people on this forum who believe in God have had experiences that make his existence either very likely or almost certain to them.  Yet they don't share your view of the afterlife. Their evidence points in a direction away from your explanation of how things work.  You cannot prove to them that you are right, and they cannot prove to you that they are right.  Some of them may be concerned that you will spend an eternity suffering in hell, but I bet that you are not worried even a tiny bit.  Because you have no way of convincing one another with actual evidence and logic.

The only thing you and they agree on is that God exists.  That's it, really.  Billions of people believe that, but the moment you try to add even a single belief they diverge.  How can any of you claim anything about God aside from "he exists" as if you know for sure?  How can you even claim it as a belief?

First of all let me comment about hell.

1) If God exist and I believe that he-she does there can not be any hell.
There are two things that God can not do.
One of this is that he can not hate anyone.
Put it in this way.
Suppose you are God and you create something that doesn't work so you will have to dump people in the garbage (hell).
That would means that the creator is not perfect because imperfection show the failing so God can not possibly create a dumping place such as hell.
This is something that even most theists can not get it that is why many theists and most religions are dead wrong and there is no way that I or yoga can agree with them.

2) When you say..........THEIR evidence you fail again.  

If they would have any real evidence then they wouldn't believe in hell or disagree with yoga.

3) More and more evidence is now coming from the hundreds of NDEs experiences.
They say that God love everybody regardless of what they think or do even if the karma system will take care of rectifying mistakes and spirituality rather than religions is the best way to climb up the ladder of human evolution.*  

* The real evolution which is spiritual not the material one like to send a rocket on the moon.
That is absolutely irrelevant as far as evolution is concern.

(December 15, 2016 at 6:37 am)Little Rik Wrote: 3) More and more evidence is now coming from the hundreds of NDEs experiences.
They say that God love everybody regardless of what they think or do even if the karma system will take care of rectifying mistakes and spirituality rather than religions is the best way to climb up the ladder of human evolution.

That's not evidence, that is the discordant accounts of people whose brains were short on oxygen. Look, you clearly refuse to accept what happens when a person suffers a near-death experience and you prefer to make up an explanation based on the flimsiest type of evidence, which is eyewitness accounts. Or in this case, partially-remembered dreams of people suffering from oxygen deprivation. You've got as much evidence as all of those other people who have differing views of heaven and hell and god and karma, otherwise they would all agree with you. <-- See that last part? Until you get to that point, your peddling the same fantasy they are.

I'm surprised this thread is still going on. It's the same thing over and over - someone starts a discussion with Rik, they get suitably covered in his shit responses, get exasperated and decide it's not worth it...then someone else chimes in - not having read over the last 5+ pages - gets suitably covered in his shit responses and decide it's not worth it...then someone else chimes in...

It's true, he's low-hanging fruit. But it requires so little time and energy to deal with him that it's tough to stop.

Yeah but generally low-hanging fruit is still fruit - it's tasty and fun. Rik is just...low hanging dingleberries.

(December 15, 2016 at 10:30 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Yeah but generally low-hanging fruit is still fruit - it's tasty and fun.  Rik is just...low hanging dingleberries.

You can say anything you like about LR.
What you can not say is that LR believe in Giacomino the elf like most atheists do.  

---

(December 15, 2016 at 9:40 am)Tonus Wrote:

(December 15, 2016 at 6:37 am)Little Rik Wrote: 3) More and more evidence is now coming from the hundreds of NDEs experiences.
They say that God love everybody regardless of what they think or do even if the karma system will take care of rectifying mistakes and spirituality rather than religions is the best way to climb up the ladder of human evolution.

That's not evidence, that is the discordant accounts of people whose brains were short on oxygen.  Look, you clearly refuse to accept what happens when a person suffers a near-death experience and you prefer to make up an explanation based on the flimsiest type of evidence, which is eyewitness accounts.  Or in this case, partially-remembered dreams of people suffering from oxygen deprivation.  You've got as much evidence as all of those other people who have differing views of heaven and hell and god and karma, otherwise they would all agree with you.  <-- See that last part?  Until you get to that point, your peddling the same fantasy they are.

1) There is no evidence of whatsoever that a brain devoid of blood and oxygen can put together such a clear and sharp experiences.
None of whatsoever.  

2) It is highly difficult under normal circumstances to see ex atheists that all of a sudden become strong theist but they do after an NDE.
How do you explain that Ton?  

3) And what about the hundreds of people that after an NDE dump their religions in favor of spirituality?
And why most of those who didn't care about anything after their NDE experiences become theists?

Sorry son.
You keep on following fantasies in your denial that there is no God.  

(December 16, 2016 at 9:26 am)Little Rik Wrote: 1) There is no evidence of whatsoever that a brain devoid of blood and oxygen can put together such a clear and sharp experiences.

There is no evidence that these are clear and sharp experiences, and since we know the way memories work, we also know how unreliable they are in such circumstances.

Quote:2) It is highly difficult under normal circumstances to see ex atheists that all of a sudden become strong theist but they do after an NDE.
How do you explain that Ton?

It is not unusual for people to have such reactions after traumatic experiences. Religion and spirituality work mostly by emotion, and such experiences can elicit very strong emotional reactions.

Quote:3) And what about the hundreds of people that after an NDE dump their religions in favor of spirituality?
And why most of those who didn't care about anything after their NDE experiences become theists?

See above.

Quote:Sorry son.
You keep on following fantasies in your denial that there is no God.

And you keep on coming up with shitty 'evidence' for the existence of a god, and I'll keep pointing out why it's shitty.