(December 15, 2016 at 11:02 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

Quote:Besides, it's not in our power to dictate what another human being chooses to do with their body. Their body, their decision.

Of course, but that doesn't mean it should be legal to help them hurt themselves when they are depressed.

Still, should be entirely up to them. If they want to go through the effort to better themselves - great, if they would rather end their suffering, they should have every right to.

Would you ban mentally ill ladies from having babies? (Unrelated to the topic, but I'm just curious on your position.)

Oh my goodness, we're comparing giving birth to killing ourselves now?

Like I said, a depressed person can kill themselves if they want to. The question is whether or not it should be legal to help them do so.

(December 16, 2016 at 12:12 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Oh my goodness, we're comparing giving birth to killing ourselves now?

Like I said, a depressed person can kill themselves if they want to. The question is whether or not it should be legal to help them do so.

It is to some extent legal to help them do it. It's just not regulated or allowed in any way that makes sense if one cares about morality.

(December 15, 2016 at 8:34 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I just think this can quickly become a slippery slope, and I feel like I'm seeing it here.

So we permit assisted suicide for the terminally ill and for those with severe debilitating illnesses or disabilities. Ok.. morally I don't agree. But I agree that in these cases, the government should leave it up to the individual and a doctor.

But it should stop there with a hard line.

Why is it your business that someone else wants to die? If your faith holds that all life is sacred, that's great -- don't kill yourself. But who are you to tell anyone else that your faith is more important than their own wishes with their own body?

(December 16, 2016 at 11:10 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(December 15, 2016 at 8:34 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I just think this can quickly become a slippery slope, and I feel like I'm seeing it here.

So we permit assisted suicide for the terminally ill and for those with severe debilitating illnesses or disabilities. Ok.. morally I don't agree. But I agree that in these cases, the government should leave it up to the individual and a doctor.

But it should stop there with a hard line.

Why is it your business that someone else wants to die? If your faith holds that all life is sacred, that's great -- don't kill yourself. But who are you to tell anyone else that your faith is more important than their own wishes with their own body?

Why is my faith being brought into discussion? I specifically said this isn't about my faith.

When someone is depressed and wants to die, I think as a society we should strive to save them, not help them go through with hurting themselves. To me, this seems like a human thing, not a specifically religious thing.

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When we thought one of our friends from here was going to kill themselves, we called the cops on him to stop it from happening. We didn't sit around and say "oh well you know, let him do as he will. Ito none of our business. I hope someone is there to help him do it successfully." No, we tried to save him. And consisering this is an atheist forum, no one involved except myself was religious.

You're not wrong, CL. I completely understand your point here. When that happened we did mobilize as a group.

I think if it were done as it would have to be done, with weeks/months of counseling and not in a decision made at low point, our reaction would have been different. I still would try to talk my friend out of it, but in the end if through an entire process s/he decided that it was their time, I would be begrudgingly supportive.

(December 16, 2016 at 11:54 am)SteelCurtain Wrote: You're not wrong, CL. I completely understand your point here. When that happened we did mobilize as a group.

I think if it were done as it would have to be done, with weeks/months of counseling and not in a decision made at low point, our reaction would have been different. I still would try to talk my friend out of it, but in the end if through an entire process s/he decided that it was their time, I would be begrudgingly supportive.

The problem I see with this though, is the kind of attitude it would eventually lead to. Things may start off that way, as you describe, because as a society we are still conditioned to seeing suicide as a negative thing... and our reaction is still to try to save the person and help them get better. But I can see how starting to make these allowances for assisted suicide of physically healthy yet depressed people can eventually turn into a more apathetic attitude towards suicide as a whole. And eventually it would get to the point where us as a society would become desensitized to suicide and our first reaction when someone is suicidal will no longer be to try to help them get better. It will simply be "Hey bro, you do you. Your body, your choice, none of my business to try to stop you." Does that make sense?

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We need to maintain that life is important and special for the good of our own society.

(December 16, 2016 at 12:08 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(December 16, 2016 at 11:54 am)SteelCurtain Wrote: You're not wrong, CL. I completely understand your point here. When that happened we did mobilize as a group.

I think if it were done as it would have to be done, with weeks/months of counseling and not in a decision made at low point, our reaction would have been different. I still would try to talk my friend out of it, but in the end if through an entire process s/he decided that it was their time, I would be begrudgingly supportive.

The problem I see with this though, is the kind of attitude it would eventually lead to. Things may start off that way, as you describe, because as a society we are still conditioned to seeing suicide as a negative thing... and our reaction is still to try to save the person and help them get better. But I can see how starting to make these allowances for assisted suicide of physically healthy yet depressed people can eventually turn into a more apathetic attitude towards suicide as a whole. And eventually it would get to the point where us as a society would become desensitized to suicide and our first reaction when someone is suicidal will no longer be to try to help them get better. It will simply be "Hey bro, you do you. Your body, your choice, none of my business to try to stop you." Does that make sense?

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We need to maintain that life is important and special for the good of our own society.

It makes sense, but I don't see it as a likely scenario. There is nothing to suggest that more people are going to want to kill themselves. The vast, overwhelming majority of suicidal folks are not fully committed, and most people in general would never consider it. Adding weeks or months of counseling and therapy with specialists would be a perfect way to mitigate those who might be making a spur of the moment decision.

I also agree with pool in scope but not magnitude. Normalizing the right to die within a clinical context could make it easier to talk about. It has already shifted the conversation for EOL discussions. Making it easier to talk about makes it easier to talk through. Which could reduce the number of people who attempt suicide.

I wasn't saying more ppl would want to kill themselves. I was referring to the attitude our society would eventually start taking.

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And I agree we should be more open in talking about suicide. I don't see how normalizing the act in the name of "it's none of my business what you want to do with yourself" would accomplish this though.

(December 16, 2016 at 11:23 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(December 16, 2016 at 11:10 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Why is it your business that someone else wants to die? If your faith holds that all life is sacred, that's great -- don't kill yourself. But who are you to tell anyone else that your faith is more important than their own wishes with their own body?

Why is my faith being brought into discussion? I specifically said this isn't about my faith.

Because it is your belief in the sacredness of life that impels you to draw a hard line, right?

(December 16, 2016 at 11:23 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: When someone is depressed and wants to die, I think as a society we should strive to save them, not help them go through with hurting themselves. To me, this seems like a human thing, not a specifically religious thing.

Of course. Maybe you should then define what you mean by "hard line", especially in this context.

(December 16, 2016 at 11:23 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: When we thought one of our friends from here was going to kill themselves, we called the cops on him to stop it from happening. We didn't sit around and say "oh well you know, let him do as he will. Ito none of our business. I hope someone is there to help him do it successfully." No, we tried to save him. And consisering this is an atheist forum, no one involved except myself was religious.

Of course. But this discussion is not about what friends do for or with each other. This discussion is about legal rights.