(November 27, 2016 at 7:35 pm)snowtracks Wrote:

(November 12, 2016 at 2:48 am)Primordial Bisque Wrote: Snowtracks, if you need to go to these lengths to prove a god exists, maybe it's just time to face the music and accept that it's just not there. The only person you're fooling is yourself. It's an old story. Nothing more.

God existence is known by everyone so no proof is needed or even proposed.

That is incorrect. Nice try attempting to evade the burden of proof, as well.

(November 27, 2016 at 7:35 pm)snowtracks Wrote: The reason God said to Moses when Moses asked 'Who should I say has send me?' God replied "Moses, I AM that I Am" which means that God cannot have an explanation of His existence which eternal to Him, for then He would depend for His existence on whatever thing it is that explains His existence, so the explanation of God's existence must be internal to Him; that is to say, God exists by a necessity of His own nature - "I AM Who* I Am"  - God by necessity doesn't require a beginning (there isn't any explanation how this could be, other than 'God just exist)'. Beginning are only required on the cosmic timeline which is unidirectional where cause and effect transactions transpire. No 'these length' here since I fully endorse free will (God made the Garden of Eden very good [not perfect] but made it even better by later introducing free will). 

* some translations have it as 'Who'.

So, god cannot be contingent/dependent on anything, including someone offering an explanation or evidence of "his" existence? So, you have no idea what it is you believe in and worship; outside of an old story? Do you even know what your god is?

(November 27, 2016 at 10:38 pm)Tonus Wrote:

(November 27, 2016 at 7:35 pm)snowtracks Wrote: God existence is known by everyone so no proof is needed or even proposed.

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Then why has humanity worshipped millions of different gods over the course of our history?  Did God give everyone the innate knowledge that he exists, but nothing more?  If so, how do you know that it's the God who spoke to Moses?  Or that there ever even was a Moses?  Why would God give us the certainty that he is real but not give us a way of verifying that feeling?  Why would he give us that certainty, knowing that it would lead to centuries of bloodshed and horrific treatment of one another and that all of that suffering was utterly unnecessary if he'd just given us a name?

Why do you think up ideas like "everyone KNOWS god exists" without realizing that it doesn't get you any further than "god is necessary"?  The evidence for your god is so poor that you fall back on awful crap like that without realizing what it means.  If that's the best you can do then we're at square one: god... kinda probably exists... maybe.

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 This is what you're hanging an eternal reward or punishment on.

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 And you seem to think that the existence of a god who plays sick games like that is the PREFERABLE outcome.  You don't know what you're wishing for.

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Humans are not punished by God for anything including those who say they don't believe in His existence. However, everyone will have their day of judgement, some will opt for a self-imposed eternal suffering, resulting from a free will decision. The equation is set-up incorrectly when portrait as this: Nonbeliever suffer eternal judgement for a temporal period (3 score and 10 +10 [by desire] as it were) of sin. The issue here is not how long the person sinned while living temporally on the earth, but rather the crux of the matter rests upon whom the sin was committed against. To commit sin against an eternal God is to commit an eternal sin. The remedy for the sin problem was the 2'nd person of the Trinity extirpating each person's sin by compressing the eternal sin judgement down to hours to 3 days. Some will take the remedy (belief that it was done for them);  the sin problem will be answered one way or another. There is scripture indications that approx. 1/3 will secure the remedy.

(December 15, 2016 at 12:18 am)snowtracks Wrote: To commit sin against an eternal God is to commit an eternal sin.

What a bunch of bollocks!  What a fucking pathetic god you worship, a being so utterly incapable of dealing with mortals that their actions somehow translate into eternal offense.

At least, that's what it would be if your mythology was actually true.  I don't believe a word of it.

(December 15, 2016 at 12:18 am)snowtracks Wrote: Humans are not punished by God for anything including those who say they don't believe in His existence. However, everyone will have their day of judgement, some will opt or a self-imposed eternal suffering, resulting from a free will decision. The equation is set-up incorrectly when portrait as this: Nonbeliever suffer eternal judgement for a temporal period (3 score and 10 +10 [by desire] as it were) of sin. The issue here is not how long the person sinned while living temporally on the earth, but rather the crux of the matter rests upon whom the sin was committed against. To commit sin against an eternal God is to commit an eternal sin. The remedy for the sin problem was the 2'nd person of the Trinity extirpating each person's sin by compressing the eternal sin judgement down to hours to 3 days. Some will take the remedy (belief that it was done for them);  the sin problem will be answered one way or another. There is scripture indications that approx. 1/3 will secure the remedy.

This is barely-coherent. It may make you feel better to blame everyone else for God's failings, but the explanation doesn't hold water. Especially since you begin by saying that no one is punished by God, then explaining all of the ways in which people will be punished by God. The justification for eternal reward or punishment is an attempt to have it both ways. God is the personification of love and kindness and mercy and generosity... but he'll condemn you to eternal suffering. In other words, god is far less merciful than any number of human beings who forgave people without requiring blood sacrifices or any torture at all. I personify love, kindness, mercy and generosity more than your god does, because I am capable of forgiving with no strings attached.

(December 15, 2016 at 10:15 am)Tonus Wrote:

(December 15, 2016 at 12:18 am)snowtracks Wrote: Humans are not punished by God for anything including those who say they don't believe in His existence. However, everyone will have their day of judgement, some will opt or a self-imposed eternal suffering, resulting from a free will decision. The equation is set-up incorrectly when portrait as this: Nonbeliever suffer eternal judgement for a temporal period (3 score and 10 +10 [by desire] as it were) of sin. The issue here is not how long the person sinned while living temporally on the earth, but rather the crux of the matter rests upon whom the sin was committed against. To commit sin against an eternal God is to commit an eternal sin. The remedy for the sin problem was the 2'nd person of the Trinity extirpating each person's sin by compressing the eternal sin judgement down to hours to 3 days. Some will take the remedy (belief that it was done for them);  the sin problem will be answered one way or another. There is scripture indications that approx. 1/3 will secure the remedy.

This is barely-coherent.  It may make you feel better to blame everyone else for God's failings, but the explanation doesn't hold water.  Especially since you begin by saying that no one is punished by God, then explaining all of the ways in which people will be punished by God.  The justification for eternal reward or punishment is an attempt to have it both ways.  God is the personification of love and kindness and mercy and generosity... but he'll condemn you to eternal suffering.  In other words, god is far less merciful than any number of human beings who forgave people without requiring blood sacrifices or any torture at all.  I personify love, kindness, mercy and generosity more than your god does, because I am capable of forgiving with no strings attached.

"Eternal suffering" doesn't mean God's punishment; the suffering is self-imposed. Humans were made in God's image which means they have a 'spirit' dimension which never goes out of existence. A temporary sentence of separation from God for "for the misdeeds of a few short years on this earth" minimizes the meaning of sin and ignores the eternality of human choice, given the eternality of the human spirit. An individual who knowingly refused to worship God during this earthy life will never change his or her mind. Heaven's "price" worshiping God and God alone, exceeds what this person will ever willing pay. This individual does not want to be in God's presence and would find heaven unpleasant. As Hebrews says, "no sacrifice for sins is left" for those who knowingly discard God's sacred gift. They may regret their eternal plight but not their rebellion. The choice is eternal separation or connection, and everyone knows their choice before physical death.

That boils down to "worship me for eternity or suffer."

Perhaps you need to look up what "self-imposed" means?

(December 16, 2016 at 9:06 pm)snowtracks Wrote: "Eternal suffering" doesn't mean God's punishment; the suffering is self-imposed.

No, it's not. Humans are not the ones who set the conditions under which this fate is to be determined or how it is applied. God does. Misdirecting blame onto oneself is the sort of thing that an abuse victim does. It's bad enough to empower an actual living abuser. To raise an imaginary one to sovereign status is madness.

(December 16, 2016 at 9:06 pm)snowtracks Wrote: An individual who knowingly refused to worship God during this earthy life will never change his or her mind.

A soul that can't change its mind?  What a useless fucking thing that would be -- No prospect of learning or change, for eternity?  That would make any form of eternal life hellishly static and meaningless.

Any at all would be a nice start.

I've thought about it and come to the conclusion that I don't know what would be "good evidence" for the existence of God, specifically.  I once had a Catholic ask me if I would believe if God were standing right before me and I had to answer, "I wouldn't be sure.  The Bible says that the devil can disguise himself as an angel of light."

But here's the deal, it doesn't even matter that I don't know.  Because if God is real then SHE (God is genderless right?  So this is EXACTLY as accurate as "he") knows what it would take to convince me.  What's more, she WANTS me to believe.  I would not deny the evidence God, herself, put before me.  So IF there really is a God and IF she really wants to save me, I don't need to know what would convince me because she knows and she is going to do it because she wants me to be saved.