(December 18, 2016 at 10:40 pm)Aroura Wrote: Well, this thread devolved pretty badly (yet, unsurprisingly).

I think I'll just take AT's advice, and not look at news and discussions such as this one.  It gets everyone exactly nowhere.  
As I have unfriended exactly 0 people, I have no issues there.

But let me end by saying, well intentioned as it may be, it's condescending as hell to tell people to go live in an echo chamber, as that isn't what I want. Looking away doesn't make the problem go away.  It's also pretty harsh to continue to suggest that he's just a president and has limited power, as that seems to be ignoring, well, pretty much all of the concerns people like me have.

I still love you all, but nothing is going to fix this, because what it did was reveal a truth to me.  Kind of like when I became an atheist, it is turning out to be a painful realization. A bit of an epiphany, if you will. I guess I should not be angry at other people who haven't had the same experience, or perhaps some here who had it a long time ago so are not surprised.

I will, yet again, try and stay out of political areas. Thanks for listening.  Peace.

I know times are dark and a trails lay ahead but we must be vigilant a stand against this darkness not just for ourselves but all those to come after I can't say it will work with certainty but what else do we have if not this burden

(December 18, 2016 at 8:52 pm)paulpablo Wrote:

(December 18, 2016 at 8:44 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: Calling out bigotry and racism isn't shutting down free speech.

But now you mention it this can be a way of shutting out free speech.

No it isn't.

Quote:  Since people are afraid of being called racist it can be used as a way of intimidation if you want to talk about something race related but you're afraid of being called a racist.

No one needs to be afraid of being called racist unless they're actually racist.

I've never been called racist in my life.

---

(December 18, 2016 at 8:41 pm)paulpablo Wrote: I think it's divisive to on the one hand claim the merits of diversity and free speech only to then shut down speech and just have the communication be all about shouting, swearing, calling people vermin and things like that.  

If I'm pro the free speech of bigots being able to say bigoted things then I'm DEFINITELY pro the free speech of the non-bigots being able to call the bigots bigots.

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(December 18, 2016 at 6:37 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: Sensible people the world over all of them had too much faith in the judgement of the American people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyEXshBOwEU

The thing is I always thought it could happen. I have no faith in much of the American electorate
They seem to be highly motivated idiots.

A highly motivated idiot? Hmmm. That's like the exact opposite of me.

---

(December 18, 2016 at 8:00 am)CanOfMountainDew Wrote: There are people who would've felt the exact same as you had Hillary won. They would've thought every thought you outlined in the OP, only with Trump and Hillary reversed.

Well that's just ridiculous though. Hillary is no Trump.

---

(December 18, 2016 at 8:00 am)CanOfMountainDew Wrote: Anyway, that someone prefers Trump over Hillary doesn't necessitate that they think he's great; only that he's the lesser evil. Remember that when you think to judge.

I hardly need to try to remember that in order to judge people who think that Trump is the lesser evil as fucking deluded as fuck.

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(December 18, 2016 at 8:00 am)CanOfMountainDew Wrote: I would invite you to believe that Trump isn't as bad as you think he is, nore are his voters.

You're right. I can't really underestimate the shittiness of Trump. He's probably not as bad as I think he is... he's probably even worse. I think Trump is a bigoted blabber mouth but I don't know the full extent of all the shitty things he's done before running for president... so I'm aware that my opinion of him should probably be even lower. I'm aware of Trump University but he's probably done other disgustingly immorally corrupt things that I don't know about, too.

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(December 18, 2016 at 10:11 am)Loading Please Wait Wrote: I was sick the night Obama won, but accepted it, and decided to give him a chance. Half the country felt the same way you feel 8 years ago, betrayed and hurt. But look where we are!

The world is still spinning and the sun is still shining.

That's because Obama was actually an awesome president.

You were sick the night Obama won? What the fuck? His opponent was Romney.

---

(December 18, 2016 at 1:42 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: Of course, I fully support your free speech and your ability to call whoever you want a racist. However you can't argue that you are in favor of political correctness because it's respectful dialog and at the same time call people racist all will nilly.

You can call someone racist willy nilly if they keep being racist willy nilly.

Quote: Calling someone a racist isn't respectful.

Nor is it disrespectful if they're actually being racist.

Calling a spade a spade is not disrespectful.

---

(December 18, 2016 at 1:50 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: You risk being called a racist almost regardless of what you do and say nowadays.

And the only people who actually need to be afraid are the people who are actually racist.

If I say something anti-Islam and get called a racist I'll call that person a moron for not knowing the difference.

Funny how that's never ever happened though. I don't get called a racist ever no matter how anti-islam I am. Probably because I never attack muslims, only their religion. If someone is bigoted against muslims I have absolutely zero sympathy for them when they whine after getting incorrectly called racist. Because my response is "Oh wow they were such a meanie pants weren't they? You're not a racist you're just a bigot against an entire group of people. Awww diddums."

(December 18, 2016 at 5:02 am)Aroura Wrote: I fully expect a few of the less sensitive members on this forum to troll me here, but I'm not in any mood to be called snowflake, pansy, or be told to grow up and put on my big boy pants (or other like insults), so I won't be responding to any comments like that.  I know I can't stop you from posting, just know I'll not be responding to any cruel trolling.

This thread is to help people who need to heal, for people who are suffering from legitimate grief since the election.  Like me.  I'd like to share with anyone here going through anything similar.  

Still grieving Trump? You are not alone

So almost every morning since the election I wake up feeling so strange.  Depressed, angry, more depressed, anxious, etc. Yes it's getting a bit better, but coming up on the electoral college vote the stress is starting to make it worse again.  I am having actual nightmares, and even when not election themed, my sleep has been much more disturbed, and my waking hours I feel constantly distracted and tired.  I cry over literally nothing.  In the shower, while playing video games, while driving to the store. My thoughts wander in mid sentence, I keep catching myself just staring off into space. 

The first few days after the election I thought it WAS normal, and that it would pass.  But it isn't passing!  I'm angrier than I've been in...well, maybe ever.  But that's only when I have the energy to even be angry. 

I'm trying to identify exactly why I feel this grief so deeply. I honestly feel if it had been Romney, or Jeb Bush, I would have been pissed and snippy for a few days, then moved on.  
This is like someone died.  I feel very real emotional pain,and it's not stopping, because I'm constantly reminded of the cause.  Can't look at FB, this site, or any news anywhere without a reminder that is akin to a punch in the face.

It feels so extreme.  I've tried to identify what my grief and anger is centered around, but it isn't just one thing.  So here a few things I have been feeling, rational or not.  I need to get them off my chest.

I honestly feel like Hillary lost because she's a woman.  Yeah, I know ALL of the problems that faced her, I've seen them listed over and over.  But Trump was just as bad or far worse in every category.  Why are people upset that she's on the side of wallstreet, but ignore the oh so obvious fact that Trump will be as bad or worse?
(I also hear hillary lost her shit on election night, all as an aside with sniggers included from the person telling it.  And you know, even if true, I just feel so bad for her!  Losing to that monster, the fact that she has returned to the public eye at ALL says something about her fortitude.  I still catch myself trying out how it would have felt to see her smiling face on the news each day instead of that orange sphincter, and that makes me sad too.  What might have been.  


I feel betrayed by my own country.  I thought people were better than this, better than him!  I felt we were moving away from his kind of thinking.  Yes, I know these people still exist, I guess I just didn't realize they compromised between 25 and 50% of everyone.

I am angry at people who fell for (and continue to fall for) fake news.  I'm angry that people are so selfish and so easily fooled by a con man.

My husband has told me in the past that he thinks I'm an optimist.  I feel there is "good" in everyone, and I try to look for it.  I forgive easily, and empathize constantly.  So now I'm angry at my own naitivity.  To think that people really wanted to be part of humanity as a whole, to love others as they are.  A world without borders, governments, religions, etc.  I know we are still so far away, but I felt a bit hopeful that we were moving in the right direction!  Now it seems John Lennons Imagine was just violently murdered by a mob screaming "Trump that Bitch" and thrown in the gutter.  And yes, I see the irony of me not accepting everyone here, which is perhaps part of my frustration and anger.

I spent a brief amount of time taking the advice of trying to talk to Trump voters to find that common ground, to understand and hopefully move forward.  But the immediate response in every case has been condescending name calling.  I'm a SJW, or a libtard, or an insane leftist that is bullying people, etc.  I stopped trying to talk to them.  They are full of glorified righteous anger, and my pathetic grief cannot withstand it.

I catch myself looking at people's cars, their faces, their clothes, and wondering, did they vote for Trump?  I've NEVER done this kind of thing before!  I don't judge people based on who they voted for, that's stupid!  Or it was; now, I am torn.

I tried to get involved in some activism, and although it made me feel really energized at first, that didn't last. First, it was the postcard campaign against Bannon, and signing petitions.  I have even made more than one donation to groups I've never donated to before, such as Planned parenthood and the ACCLU. But then a few days later, I start feeling that none of my activism will make a difference, so I'm right back to depression.  I mean, nothing is stopping the White house filling with science deniers, creationists, bigots of the very worst stripe, and completely unqualified 1%ers with literally 0 experience at what they are now in charge of.

Well, I'm really opening myself up to hurt here, but I'm hoping that in doing so I can find a way to start healing.

Unbelievable. I know the left can be haughty and high minded crybabies but this is beyond belief. You don't take disagreement very well. Democrats just don't get it. They're not going to win elections by alienating the white male blue collar workers in the rust belt states. The dems lost a big part of their base this last election.

Oh look, another crybaby comment! What an extremely mature response to genuine pain. Not that I'd expect more from a lowlife, lying sack of shit like you.
Everyone lacking 1 oz of empathy can seriously just fuck right off. If making fun is your response, you are the problem, dividers one and all.

CL is a wonderful personight, who listened and tried to hear.

You are a selfish divider. Not that you are capable of that level of self examination, you narcissistic pig. You represent 100% why people are grieving, because selfish, lying, delusional fuckers like you now think your assite hattery is acceptable. Well I've got news for you, it's still not. It's not ok to just run around runNing your mouth off. It's not ok to make up your own facts. It's not ok to be a bully, or a demagogue.

Fuck.
Off.

A Theist is a massively bigoted cretin who I won't be addressing directly. Not worthy getting riled over that fuckface. In fact his dislike of me makes me look good.

---

(December 18, 2016 at 8:48 pm)ApeNotKillApe Wrote:

(December 18, 2016 at 8:40 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: Everyone is entitled to say bigoted things but when they get called bigoted for it and they suggest that the other person is equally bigoted for merely pointing out the truth of their own disgusting bigotry... then they are simply flat out wrong. It's not bigoted to think that a bigot is a bigot.

It's an exercise in futility when everyone is a bigot screaming bigot at other bigots. Talk about an echo chamber.

In my experience that never happens. There's always non-bigots too and the bigots are the people who normally get called bigots.

I mean, when a bigot says bigoted things and I call them a bigot and they try to deny it and then I literally quote what they said that was bigoted and explain why... what are they going to do, lie and pretend I was bigoted?

I've had people misrepresent me. I've had people claim that I said all Trump voters were bigots and all I had to do is go back and quote what I actually said to say no I didn't fucking say that and in fact I specified specifically that not all of them were

Somehow it doesn't work as well being called a bigot when you have the truth and evidence on your side and the bigot is a lying misrepresenting fuck but you actually have quotes of them saying things that actually are and were bigoted because they're actually a bigot but you're not. What do I have to be afraid of? Nothing. Only the bigots have to be afraid of being called bigoted.

Also it's fucking retarded when people act like being called a bigot is being bigoted against their bigotry LOL. Like racists represent a group of people. It's like they're saying "HOW DARE YOU CALL ALL RACISTS RACIST!".......... somehow it doesn't work quite the same when it's true by definition. Truth actually matters. Are all bachelors unmarried? Yes. Are all bigots bigoted? Yes. Are all muslims terrorists? No, go fuck yourself.

(Oh lol BTW that wasn't directed at you or anyone here ANKA, lol, I was just ranting).

(December 19, 2016 at 5:06 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote:

(December 18, 2016 at 8:52 pm)paulpablo Wrote: But now you mention it this can be a way of shutting out free speech.

No it isn't.

Quote:  Since people are afraid of being called racist it can be used as a way of intimidation if you want to talk about something race related but you're afraid of being called a racist.

No one needs to be afraid of being called racist unless they're actually racist.

I can tell you've put the shutters down so you won't accept any points I'm about to make but you're wrong.

I've got in arguments with white people several times, in person, and they've specifically said something along the lines of they're going to tell some non white people I'm racist so I get beaten up.

This wasn't in intelligent debates this would just be childish shit like some girls in the street might randomly insult me and my friend, we insult them back, then they've said we're going to tell those pakistanis over there you're racist now.

Nothing happened in that situation, but calling someone racist can easily be due to nothing and can easily be used as intimidation.  I've seen people encouraged into fights loads of times using that technique. 

I don't see how it can be arguable that the potential for that can't be there.  People don't always tell the truth and some people are violent.  

I remember a pakistani in my old school saying he wanted to burn down the newspapers for being racist and always printing pakistani attacks on white people.  Me and my friend pointed out to him that it's basically the newspaper reporting incidents of racism, not the newspaper being racist.

Not to mention hasn't the been LOADS of incidents of celebrities being called racist for no reason, like Helen when she had that picture riding on the back of Ussain Bolt?

(December 18, 2016 at 1:28 pm)scoobysnack Wrote:

(December 18, 2016 at 10:58 am)Tazzycorn Wrote: Reading fake news sites is bad for your health. It was the Drumpfucks that were doing the defacing of property, the intimidation, the threats of presidential assasination. The whole mythology of the "shy Trump" voter is a lie. He brought not one single person to the booths that the republicans hadn't already captured.


Seems to me that when the candidate who lost the vote by 3m votes and counting, when the candidate whose party disenfranchised at least 7 million voters (and when you factor in the use of voter ID laws declared unconstitutional by the highest court in the land north of 10 million US citizens probably lost their right to vote), is declared the winner the people at the polling booths have been silenced.

Trump's swearing in will be as shabby and treasonous a day as when Franz von Papen crowned Hitler Reichkanzler back in 1933.

Not really at all actually. The left is openly calling for his assassination. The left has been rioting. The left has been defacing property all over. The left spray painted make america white again on a building, which was pounced on by trump protesters as proof trump supporters were racists, when in fact it as a leftists who wrote it in protest. There are stories of Muslims who faked stories about being harassed, and now getting charged with filing false police reports.

Then to factor in the all the ICE agents who talk about the fake documents they find on the illegal aliens and the left pushing for non citizens to vote you have to wonder how many illegal votes were cast in sanctuary cities. The vast majority of citizens have drivers licences or at least IDs despite what the left likes to say. There are really very few people that don't have IDs in the US.

Hey scoobyshit, nice of you to ignore my very first sentence stating that fake news is bad for your health. Would you like to post some verifiable eviednce to back up your claims (which, I might as well add seem to have come from far right and neo nazi conspiracists)?

---

(December 18, 2016 at 7:38 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I use the same type of thinking to refrain from calling Trump voters "racism supporters." 

That's what I meant.

Why is telling people the truth about their choices a bad thing? I know it's a relatively remote chance, but taking people back to the shit that is Trump's racist platform and rubbing their noses in it may just make then realise how wrong it is. By following your position and ignoring the elephant in the room (along with many others such as his pandering of anti abortion extremeists) only validates and normalises his and their racism.

(December 19, 2016 at 6:22 am)Aroura Wrote: Oh look, another crybaby comment! What an extremely mature response to genuine pain. Not that I'd expect more from a lowlife, lying sack of shit like you.
Everyone lacking 1 oz of empathy can seriously just fuck right off. If making fun is your response, you are the problem, dividers one and all.

CL is a wonderful personight, who listened and tried to hear.

You are a selfish divider. Not that you are capable of that level of self examination, you narcissistic pig. You represent 100% why people are grieving, because selfish, lying, delusional fuckers like you now think your assite hattery is acceptable. Well I've got news for you, it's still not. It's not ok to just run around runNing your mouth off. It's not ok to make up your own facts. It's not ok to be a bully, or a demagogue.

Fuck.
Off.

Lol! Come on, you do sound sappy. If you were suffering the loss of a family member, or were suffering from a terminal illness I would absolutely express some empathy for your pain. But being depressed because you're intolerant toward people who don't agree with you politically and ideologically is beyond ridiculous.

---

(December 19, 2016 at 6:47 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: A Theist is a massively bigoted cretin who I won't be addressing directly. Not worthy getting riled over that fuckface. In fact his dislike of me makes me look good.

Where did I ever say that I disliked you? I don't know you enough to have any opinion of you one way or the other.

(Ok, so I know I said I'd stay out of this out of respect for Aroura's intention for this thread. But I just want to make one more post, which is directed at some of the responses that keep popping up here and not directed at all towards the actual OP of the thread or towards Aurora. After this, I will be done. And I hope more people will come in here out of support, and not to keep arguing with each other. And honestly A Theist, please just leave Aroura out of this. She's having a rough time. If you can't say something nice to her, just leave it be. She started this thread for support, not for criticism.)  

I think the problem is some of you are missing the point we were trying to make. 

What I was trying to say was, just because a person thinks "X" doesn't mean they are motivated by racist or bigoted or homophobic or xenophobic reasons. And tossing those words around at people who just see things differently than we do isn't helpful and isn't tolerant of diversity of thought. This is exactly what I was trying to say to Steel on my long post to him a few pages ago. 

As an example, many people here were saying that everyone who voted for Trump is a racist. I countered this point by explaining that my dad very begrudgingly voted for Trump as the lesser of 2 evils because as much as he disliked him, he disliked Hillary more. I explained that my dad is not a racist person and that he did not like the racist comments Trump made. But some people here, who don't even know my father, insisted on telling me he was a racist bigot simply because he voted for Trump. They refuse to consider that perhaps his thinking was different than theirs was.  

And as Captain said, every time he criticizes the religion of Islam, he's dismissed as being a racist even though his criticism has 0 to do with the race of most Muslims and everything to do with the ideology itself. But those who choose to call him a racist bigot anyway refuse to consider that. That right there is intolerance of thought diversity. They refuse to see that he may be thinking of it differently in a way that has 0 to do with race and everything to do with the religion itself. Have any of you watched the little talk Ben Affleck had with Bill Mayer and Sam Harris a couple years ago? Ben told both of them they were being racist because they criticized the religion of Islam. 

It works this way with a lot of issues. Plenty of which Steel outlined on his post and I responded to. Don't agree with gay marriage? Oh it must be because you hate gays, you homophobe. Don't agree with abortion? Oh it must be because you hate women, you misogynist. Don't agree with letting illegal immigrants stay? Oh it must be because you hate Mexicans, you racist. Voted for Trump? Oh it must be because you hate everyone who isn't a white Christian male, you bigot.

Some people here keep saying "well, if you say or think something bigoted, I'm going to call you a bigot." But again, can't you consider for a second that perhaps their opinion on something has everything to do with a different way of looking at it and 0 to do with any sort of bigotry? That's diversity of thought. And making that consideration is tolerance for diversity of thought.

Let me turn this around for a second and show you, again, my own example of things the other way around. Among other things, I refrain from thinking ya'll support "baby killing" just because you are pro choice. Because even though I 100% see abortion as the taking of a little one's life, I understand that your motivation for being pro choice has 0 to do with killing babies, and that you simply just don't see it that way. And so I'm not going to sit here and call you baby killers for it. I'm always open to discussion about it and I'll disagree with your views on it all day long. But I'm not going to think any less of you and I'm not going to call you a horrible thing such as baby killer, because I can understand that that isn't your perspective and it isn't your motivation for being pro choice.   

^That's how tolerance for diversity of thought works, and it goes both ways.

(December 18, 2016 at 5:02 am)Aroura Wrote: I fully expect a few of the less sensitive members on this forum to troll me here, but I'm not in any mood to be called snowflake, pansy, or be told to grow up and put on my big boy pants (or other like insults), so I won't be responding to any comments like that.  I know I can't stop you from posting, just know I'll not be responding to any cruel trolling.

This thread is to help people who need to heal, for people who are suffering from legitimate grief since the election.  Like me.  I'd like to share with anyone here going through anything similar.  

Still grieving Trump? You are not alone

So almost every morning since the election I wake up feeling so strange.  Depressed, angry, more depressed, anxious, etc. Yes it's getting a bit better, but coming up on the electoral college vote the stress is starting to make it worse again.  I am having actual nightmares, and even when not election themed, my sleep has been much more disturbed, and my waking hours I feel constantly distracted and tired.  I cry over literally nothing.  In the shower, while playing video games, while driving to the store. My thoughts wander in mid sentence, I keep catching myself just staring off into space. 

The first few days after the election I thought it WAS normal, and that it would pass.  But it isn't passing!  I'm angrier than I've been in...well, maybe ever.  But that's only when I have the energy to even be angry. 

I'm trying to identify exactly why I feel this grief so deeply. I honestly feel if it had been Romney, or Jeb Bush, I would have been pissed and snippy for a few days, then moved on.  
This is like someone died.  I feel very real emotional pain,and it's not stopping, because I'm constantly reminded of the cause.  Can't look at FB, this site, or any news anywhere without a reminder that is akin to a punch in the face.

It feels so extreme.  I've tried to identify what my grief and anger is centered around, but it isn't just one thing.  So here a few things I have been feeling, rational or not.  I need to get them off my chest.

I honestly feel like Hillary lost because she's a woman.  Yeah, I know ALL of the problems that faced her, I've seen them listed over and over.  But Trump was just as bad or far worse in every category.  Why are people upset that she's on the side of wallstreet, but ignore the oh so obvious fact that Trump will be as bad or worse?
(I also hear hillary lost her shit on election night, all as an aside with sniggers included from the person telling it.  And you know, even if true, I just feel so bad for her!  Losing to that monster, the fact that she has returned to the public eye at ALL says something about her fortitude.  I still catch myself trying out how it would have felt to see her smiling face on the news each day instead of that orange sphincter, and that makes me sad too.  What might have been.  


I feel betrayed by my own country.  I thought people were better than this, better than him!  I felt we were moving away from his kind of thinking.  Yes, I know these people still exist, I guess I just didn't realize they compromised between 25 and 50% of everyone.

I am angry at people who fell for (and continue to fall for) fake news.  I'm angry that people are so selfish and so easily fooled by a con man.

My husband has told me in the past that he thinks I'm an optimist.  I feel there is "good" in everyone, and I try to look for it.  I forgive easily, and empathize constantly.  So now I'm angry at my own naitivity.  To think that people really wanted to be part of humanity as a whole, to love others as they are.  A world without borders, governments, religions, etc.  I know we are still so far away, but I felt a bit hopeful that we were moving in the right direction!  Now it seems John Lennons Imagine was just violently murdered by a mob screaming "Trump that Bitch" and thrown in the gutter.  And yes, I see the irony of me not accepting everyone here, which is perhaps part of my frustration and anger.

I spent a brief amount of time taking the advice of trying to talk to Trump voters to find that common ground, to understand and hopefully move forward.  But the immediate response in every case has been condescending name calling.  I'm a SJW, or a libtard, or an insane leftist that is bullying people, etc.  I stopped trying to talk to them.  They are full of glorified righteous anger, and my pathetic grief cannot withstand it.

I catch myself looking at people's cars, their faces, their clothes, and wondering, did they vote for Trump?  I've NEVER done this kind of thing before!  I don't judge people based on who they voted for, that's stupid!  Or it was; now, I am torn.

I tried to get involved in some activism, and although it made me feel really energized at first, that didn't last. First, it was the postcard campaign against Bannon, and signing petitions.  I have even made more than one donation to groups I've never donated to before, such as Planned parenthood and the ACCLU. But then a few days later, I start feeling that none of my activism will make a difference, so I'm right back to depression.  I mean, nothing is stopping the White house filling with science deniers, creationists, bigots of the very worst stripe, and completely unqualified 1%ers with literally 0 experience at what they are now in charge of.

Well, I'm really opening myself up to hurt here, but I'm hoping that in doing so I can find a way to start healing.

I voted for Trump. He was not my first choice comma but he was the only legitimate Choice against Hillary. I see a lot of myself in your words. A picture how I would have felt if Hillary would have won and I see the name calling that you do with Trump and Trump supporters and I have thought the very same things of Hillary and Hillary supporters.
I tried to picture how I would have felt had she won and it is very similar to the feelings that you have. Major disillusionment of my fellow countrymen.
While I try to see the good in Trump you see only the bad. Well you see the good in Hillary I see only the bad. We are actually very similar, we are just approaching this from two different perspectives period from two different viewpoints. And I would bet that if you and I were friends we would find that we agree on probably 70% of everything that matters.
Just so you know, my voting Trump has absolutely nothing and I mean nothing to do with Hillary being a woman. It had almost everything to do with my perception of Hillary is a criminal and a horrible horrible person. Much like your perception of trump as a horrible horrible person.

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