(January 12, 2017 at 6:59 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(January 12, 2017 at 6:56 pm)A Theist Wrote: Much more complicated than that. That was the easy part. He planned the escape for weeks and lost about 30 pounds so he could squeeze into the tight crawl space between floors...

So, If I'm getting this right, if we overfed our pretrial custody folks.....that would be a cheaper but equally effective way of preventing that sort of thing....that doesn't have any of the attendant issues of capital punishment? I have to ask, though, in all seriousness, how exactly would the death penalty have helped in bundy's case....before he was convicted?

I was just pointing out the cunning and intellect of Ted Bundy and how he was someone that was truly deserving of the death penalty. He was a remorseless and brutal serial killer who raped and tortured his victims before killing them. He kept their dead bodies and would return to have sex with them until they were too decomposed. He also decapitated some and kept their heads as trophies. By Florida law he was executed. Bundy was a psychopathic killer who showed no remorse or pity for his victims. Dylan Roof walked into a church with the intention of killing black people. They were having a prayer meeting and they showed him nothing but love and acceptance and he murdered them without remorse. Because he murdered those people, the state will lawfully put him to death. You can object all you want. A cold blooded and remorseless murderer can lawfully be put to death in 38 states here in this country.

I'm familiar with Bundy, I'm also familiar with the fact that we have capital punishment, you probably remember this about me, but I grew up in florida...I remember old sparky, lol.  

OFC I can object all I want, and yeah, they'll axe the guy all the same.  I'll keep objecting, not for his sake. Used to be that we could lawfully put a homosexual, or...lol..a witch.... to death...so, to me, reciting off what is and is not lawful doesn't mean much. Sometimes, we lawfully do shitty and downright idiotic things. There have always been those who prosaically rattle off comments similar to yours above as though they contained some insight into the subject.

They never have.

(January 13, 2017 at 7:24 am)Rhythm Wrote: I'm familiar with Bundy, I'm also familiar with the fact that we have capital punishment, you probably remember this about me, but I grew up in florida...I remember old sparky, lol.  

OFC I can object all I want, and yeah, they'll axe the guy all the same.  I'll keep objecting, not for his sake.  Used to be that we could lawfully put a homosexual, or...lol..a witch.... to death...so, to me, reciting off what is and is not lawful doesn't mean much.  Sometimes, we lawfully do shitty and downright idiotic things.  There have always been those who prosaically rattle off comments similar to yours above as though they contained some insight into the subject.  

They never have.

We're old enough, (at least I am, that is), to remember the events with Ted Bundy as they took place. I can still remember the news reports of his killing sprees and I can still remember watching him take his own defense at his trial on television. I can still remember watching the news when the judge told Bundy at his sentencing, what a waste of humanity and that he would have made a good lawyer but he (Bundy) went another way.

Come on, Ted Bundy was hardly put to death for being a witch or a homosexual. I wasn't giving any special insight to the subject. What I gave were the facts of his murder sprees, an indictment of facts that sent Bundy to Florida's electric chair. I would venture to say, aside from a few of us, that not very many members on this forum are old enough to remember the events of Bundy as they took place. Some may not even know who he was, and some may only have a vague knowledge of him from what they read. So, I gave some facts to give some background on what Bundy did.

Out of curiosity, if you were called upon to plead for the lives of the likes of Ted Bundy, Dylan Roof, Timothy McVeigh, John Wayne Gacy, etc...at their trials, what evidence would you give, or what would you say to convince a courtroom that their lives should be spared?

I do not agree with the death penalty. I am not soft on people like Roof either. Whether death or life in prison one purpose of either sentence is retribution. In my opinion Roof should be protected in prison from other inmates and allowed to grow old. Losing his freedom and being Dylan Roof in prison for the next 50-60 years is retribution enough.

(January 12, 2017 at 8:35 pm)Rhythm Wrote: As to extraordinary evidence, we convicted and killed a man based upon extraordinary evidence a few years back in texas..we actually found out, before he was executed, the the "extraordinary evidence" was only extraordinary in that it amounted to witchcraft.  We already maintain that extraordinary evidence and crimes are all that warrant the death penalty, and yet we have issues.  

Well then, that's obviously not the type of evidence I was talking about, which I made perfectly clear in another post. Also, you're talking about Texas. They need more reform than the average bear.

Quote:I know this wasn't aimed at me, but if some person isn't worth giving a shit about, why would they be worth turning our state into executioners for?

Yeah, this is the part where you think that it bothers me to turn the state into executioners. It doesn't. They've been executioners since the dawn of our country. There have always been people that society is better off without. I'd rather see execution be rare and extremely well-controlled than argue for the life of people like Roof.

(January 13, 2017 at 7:19 am)A Theist Wrote:

(January 12, 2017 at 6:59 pm)Rhythm Wrote: So, If I'm getting this right, if we overfed our pretrial custody folks.....that would be a cheaper but equally effective way of preventing that sort of thing....that doesn't have any of the attendant issues of capital punishment?  I have to ask, though, in all seriousness, how exactly would the death penalty have helped in bundy's case....before he was convicted?

I was just pointing out the cunning and intellect of Ted Bundy and how he was someone that was truly deserving of the death penalty. He was a remorseless and brutal serial killer who raped and tortured his victims before killing them. He kept their dead bodies and would return to have sex with them until they were too decomposed. He also decapitated some and kept their heads as trophies. By Florida law he was executed. Bundy was a psychopathic killer who showed no remorse or pity for his victims. Dylan Roof walked into a church with the intention of killing black people. They were having a prayer meeting and they showed him nothing but love and acceptance and he murdered them without remorse. Because he murdered those people, the state will lawfully put him to death. You can object all you want. A cold blooded and remorseless murderer can lawfully be put to death in 38 states here in this country.

Not the fucking point. If they are remorseless then killing them only becomes an act of revenge on our part. It still does not bring back the dead. AND again this still has to be taken into account the non famous cases and non serial killer cases where a death occurs, the accused are full of people unable to pay for a defense and are appointed a court lawyer who is flooded with other cases. And again, the state spends far more on prosecution than defense which makes it much easier to potentially convict someone innocent.

You cannot treat them as separate in a long term legal system, reality does not work that way. Your mindset of revenge is archaic and is what theocracies and despots do. Nobody is trying to deny you your emotional reaction to a vile individual, what we are talking about is our value as a western society of due process, and our value of courts over mob rule. You don't convict on emotions, you don't convict on the nature of a charge, of any crime, that is not justice, that is revenge. And again, even one of the family member's of Roof's victim said "It was a hollow victory, it won't bring back my loved one". 

I am going to bring this up once again, because I find it extremely important when I see people getting emotional about the accused. Now while it was not a criminal case, I got deeply emotionally traumatized for being falsely accused of something I did not do, by an entire private school I went to. We had a play day a recess day, on a field atop a hill. The hill itself was aside a high traffic road, supported by a concrete wall with railing so you couldn't fall off the hill onto the sidewalk. 

So I was looking at the cars passing by leaning on the rail. A car kicked up a rock with it's right front tire that dinged the door. I am sure the guy while approaching might have had the hill in his vision somewhat while approaching. He assumed falsely that the rock was thrown at his car. Pulled in, got the principle made the claim. Like a dumbass I went up and said  "no, your car tire kicked it up", he didn't buy it and the principle didn't buy it. Principle forced us all back into the cafeteria and wouldn't let us out until someone confessed, meaning me. I stood my ground but the day ended with all of us staying there until the buses came to pick us up. I had hundreds of students and dozens of staff angry at me for something I did not do. Now, take that, and imagine if you are falsely accused of anything in a real court, robbery, theft, rape, child molestation, and especially murder. If you think nobody ever gets wrongfully convicted you are a fool.

I have talked to a man who got off death row because of a very flimsy case. I interviewed another who was convicted solely based on another prisoner's testimony, with NO physical evidence. There is a reason we have courts, and they are not there to simply get revenge on the accused. 

It is perfectly NORMAL to have your RIGHTFUL reaction to a vile piece of garbage like Roof. But like I said, killing him is not an act of correction or containment, on top of costing tax payers far more to prosecute not just for the trial, but for all the appeals after.  HOW we view our system matters far more long term for both the accused and falsely accused, not just one case, and not just a famous case.

Mob rule mentality, if it spreads to a big enough political level, it can poison law enforcement, prosecutors judges and potential jury pools. That is a very dangerous road mentality. You convict on facts alone, if you convict and punish for revenge, you set yourself up to be a mob rule society.

(January 13, 2017 at 8:22 am)A Theist Wrote: We're old enough, (at least I am, that is), to remember the events with Ted Bundy as they took place. I can still remember the news reports of his killing sprees and I can still remember watching him take his own defense at his trial on television. I can still remember watching the news when the judge told Bundy at his sentencing, what a waste of humanity and that he would have made a good lawyer but he (Bundy) went another way.

So what makes him any different than David Berkowitz, Edmund Kemper or Dennis Rader, only to mention a few of them. Confined for decades, as it is. None of them got away. They're savely behind bars. No need to kill them to segregate them from society. Ted Bundy, by the way, also was confined for more than a decade before being put to death. After his trial he didn't get the chance at another escape.

(January 13, 2017 at 7:19 am)A Theist Wrote:

(January 12, 2017 at 6:59 pm)Rhythm Wrote: So, If I'm getting this right, if we overfed our pretrial custody folks.....that would be a cheaper but equally effective way of preventing that sort of thing....that doesn't have any of the attendant issues of capital punishment?  I have to ask, though, in all seriousness, how exactly would the death penalty have helped in bundy's case....before he was convicted?

I was just pointing out the cunning and intellect of Ted Bundy and how he was someone that was truly deserving of the death penalty. He was a remorseless and brutal serial killer who raped and tortured his victims before killing them. He kept their dead bodies and would return to have sex with them until they were too decomposed. He also decapitated some and kept their heads as trophies. By Florida law he was executed. Bundy was a psychopathic killer who showed no remorse or pity for his victims. Dylan Roof walked into a church with the intention of killing black people. They were having a prayer meeting and they showed him nothing but love and acceptance and he murdered them without remorse. Because he murdered those people, the state will lawfully put him to death. You can object all you want. A cold blooded and remorseless murderer can lawfully be put to death in 38 states here in this country.

Ted expressed remorse later on. Or at least pretended to, but how can we know for sure if he was or not? While he was still alive on death row he actually helped detectives understand the mind of a serial killer for the sake of identifying/capturing more of them in the future. He would have done much more good to us alive in max security than dead. We can study these people and learn from them. They can help us find warning signs in other people who are or are on the verge of becoming serial killers.

If anyone thinks a revenge attitude is one that protects society and isn't oppressive, move to Iran or Saudi Arabia or North Korea. If you value an open society, then the rights of the accused are not important to that individual case, but as a long term view.

(January 13, 2017 at 8:22 am)A Theist Wrote:

(January 13, 2017 at 7:24 am)Rhythm Wrote: I'm familiar with Bundy, I'm also familiar with the fact that we have capital punishment, you probably remember this about me, but I grew up in florida...I remember old sparky, lol.  

OFC I can object all I want, and yeah, they'll axe the guy all the same.  I'll keep objecting, not for his sake.  Used to be that we could lawfully put a homosexual, or...lol..a witch.... to death...so, to me, reciting off what is and is not lawful doesn't mean much.  Sometimes, we lawfully do shitty and downright idiotic things.  There have always been those who prosaically rattle off comments similar to yours above as though they contained some insight into the subject.  

They never have.

We're old enough, (at least I am, that is), to remember the events with Ted Bundy as they took place. I can still remember the news reports of his killing sprees and I can still remember watching him take his own defense at his trial on television. I can still remember watching the news when the judge told Bundy at his sentencing, what a waste of humanity and that he would have made a good lawyer but he (Bundy) went another way.

Come on, Ted Bundy was hardly put to death for being a witch or a homosexual. I wasn't giving any special insight to the subject. What I gave were the facts of his murder sprees, an indictment of facts that sent Bundy to Florida's electric chair. I would venture to say, aside from a few of us, that not very many members on this forum are old enough to remember the events of Bundy as they took place. Some may not even know who he was, and some may only have a vague knowledge of him from what they read. So, I gave some facts to give some background on what Bundy did.

Out of curiosity, if you were called upon to plead for the lives of the likes of Ted Bundy, Dylan Roof, Timothy McVeigh, John Wayne Gacy, etc...at their trials, what evidence would you give, or what would you say to convince a courtroom that their lives should be spared?

I'm not old enough for Ted Bundy, but I have watched many documentaries about him as well as an interview he gave while behind bars.