I wondered whether or not the CofE should remain the state church, so I observed how it dealt with morality and perpetrators of immoral acts.
In the aftermath of the Charlie Hebdo shooting the CofE blamed Charlie Hebdo and exonerated the terrorists, after 9/11 they blamed the Americans and exonerated the terrorists, after 7th July they blamed British Society and praised the terrorists faith.
I support disestablishment and vote for candidates who forward this.

(January 25, 2017 at 3:03 pm)phoenix31 Wrote:

(January 25, 2017 at 2:56 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Look at the language you're using here: atrocities in the name of religion vs atrocities by people who were atheists. Now I'll ask you again to demonstrate that those atrocities were committed for atheistic reasons. Not simply by atheists.

And I don't give a shit what Andrew Schlafly's bigoted little platform says.

I don't think there is such a thing as an atheistic reason, is there? He was saying that it makes sense that atheists could be (or are) more prone to commit atrocities for those reasons that were listed. You don't have an answer for it?

I don't need one. You're the one stating the case, you're the one who needs to support it. You already conceded that there is no atheistic reason for committing atrocities, while earlier agreeing that there are many religious ones. To equate the two as though they were in any way comparable is, then, hugely dishonest.

Does a crime perpetrated (not perpetuated) by a person who identifies as atheist automatically become an atheistic crime?

And again I couldn't care less what a bigot like Schlafly says.

(January 25, 2017 at 4:33 pm)Stimbo Wrote:

(January 25, 2017 at 3:03 pm)phoenix31 Wrote: I don't think there is such a thing as an atheistic reason, is there? He was saying that it makes sense that atheists could be (or are) more prone to commit atrocities for those reasons that were listed. You don't have an answer for it?

I don't need one. You're the one stating the case, you're the one who needs to support it. You already conceded that there is no atheistic reason for committing atrocities, while earlier agreeing that there are many religious ones. To equate the two as though they were in any way comparable is, then, hugely dishonest.

Does a crime perpetrated (not perpetuated) by a person who identifies as atheist automatically become an atheistic crime?

And again I couldn't care less what a bigot like Schlafly says.

I'm not really trying to state a case, I'm trying to discuss the whole thing and come to terms with what I think about it. I'm looking for answers from you because this is all new to me and I'm not much of a thinker.

I don't think there can be such a thing as an atheistic crime because atheism is just the absence of a belief in God. But it does make sense to me that there is less of a restraint for an atheist when it comes to committing heinous acts because of (some of) the reasons cited from that guy. (I don't even know who he is.) For instance, the Nazis killing for the sake of the evolution of the species.

I don't understand how calling Schlafly a bigot and refusing to address what he states is useful.

(January 25, 2017 at 4:47 pm)phoenix31 Wrote: But it does make sense to me that there is less of a restraint for an atheist when it comes to committing heinous acts because of (some of) the reasons cited from that guy. (I don't even know who he is.)

... unless, of course, we have an alternative system. You're pretty much just saying that anarchy is a bad idea, if I were to compare this to political systems. Well of course we don't want anarchy! To finish this analogy, just because we toss out capitalism doesn't mean we go straight to anarchy. There are other possibilities. Atheists can follow other moral systems that do not require god worship. Why does plugging in a god suddenly make things better?

I am not just an atheist, for example. I am also a secular humanist. How does that make me more likely to be a bad person?

(January 25, 2017 at 10:53 am)phoenix31 Wrote: I'm sure this has been discussed numerous times already, so pardon my repetition.

I'm just wondering your opinion. Does religion help keep people in line morally, and is it worthwhile in that way?

If the world were to lose its religions, would people become pessimistic or hedonistic? Would the result be anarchy?

Probably not.  No more than we need five digits on each hand, but that's the way we come.

(January 25, 2017 at 1:43 pm)phoenix31 Wrote:

(January 25, 2017 at 1:37 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Now demonstrate that those atrocities were committed for atheistic reasons. Then we'll talk about atrocities by religious people for religious reasons.

I know atrocities happen in the name of religion but what I am saying is that more atrocities happened by people who were atheists.

Who cares?  You're confusing correlation with causation.  If atheism is not responsible for the atrocities, then the fact that they were atheists is irrelevant.  And you are simply wrong.  More atrocities are committed by the religious, simply because there are more religious people.  And of those things, a lot of them are caused by the religion, by the atrocity commiters own admission.

(January 25, 2017 at 4:54 pm)Jesster Wrote:

(January 25, 2017 at 4:47 pm)phoenix31 Wrote: But it does make sense to me that there is less of a restraint for an atheist when it comes to committing heinous acts because of (some of) the reasons cited from that guy. (I don't even know who he is.)

... unless, of course, we have an alternative system. You're pretty much just saying that anarchy is a bad idea, if I were to compare this to political systems. Well of course we don't want anarchy! To finish this analogy, just because we toss out capitalism doesn't mean we go straight to anarchy. There are other possibilities. Atheists can follow other moral systems that do not require god worship. Why does plugging in a god suddenly make things better?

I am not just an atheist, for example. I am also a secular humanist. How does that make me more likely to be a bad person?

Yeah, that's a good point. I guess the part that confuses me is if morality is relative then humanism and nazism are both equal, it's just whatever the majority decides to be ethical is ethical. Idk. I'm getting confused so I'm probably not helping the conversation at all. Sorry.

I know what you are trying to say, Phoenix and it doesn't hold water.

First off, the pope's holy crusaders murdered thousands and expected to get sent to heaven for it.  But that isn't even the worst part of jesusism.  It has a built in get-out-of-jail-free card wherein all you have to do is say "I'm sorry, pappy jesus" and he forgives any and all crimes.... except apparently blaspheming the fucking holy spirit or some such shit.

I have a scathing disrespect for any fucking religion which insists that Jeffrey Dahmer can be "saved" but Gandhi will burn in hell.

http://www.christianchronicle.org/articl...rey-dahmer

Quote:When Dahmer died, I was a staff writer for The Oklahoman. I’ll never forget talking that day with Curt Booth, a member of the Crescent Church of Christ in Oklahoma, about his role in Dahmer’s conversion.
“I know Jeffrey was ready,” Booth told me. “Today, all the angels in heaven are rejoicing because Jeffrey has come home.”
Booth said he had no doubt about the sincerity of Dahmer’s conversion.
“On the great resurrection day, I’m expecting to see him right along there with Abraham, David, Isaac, James, John and all the saints that have lived right up to the modern day,” Booth said.

Assholes.

It's not a case of either religious restraint or anarchy. Look up 'social contract' for a start.

As for nazis, they were more xtian in their motivations and their actions than many xtians want to admit. You don't find many atheists sporting the slogan "Gott mit uns", for one thing.

(January 25, 2017 at 5:09 pm)Minimalist Wrote: I have a scathing disrespect for any fucking religion which insists that Jeffrey Dahmer can be "saved" but Gandhi will burn in hell.

http://www.christianchronicle.org/articl...rey-dahmer

Quote:When Dahmer died, I was a staff writer for The Oklahoman. I’ll never forget talking that day with Curt Booth, a member of the Crescent Church of Christ in Oklahoma, about his role in Dahmer’s conversion.
“I know Jeffrey was ready,” Booth told me. “Today, all the angels in heaven are rejoicing because Jeffrey has come home.”
Booth said he had no doubt about the sincerity of Dahmer’s conversion.
“On the great resurrection day, I’m expecting to see him right along there with Abraham, David, Isaac, James, John and all the saints that have lived right up to the modern day,” Booth said.

Assholes.

But you have to remember they are intellectually disabled to biblical proportions.