I'm having an argument with my agnostic brother, he says you are born agnostic and I say you are born atheist. When you are born you have no knowledge of what's around you. And you can't understand anything because you haven't developed enough to understand anything. So if you can't understand anything than you don't believe in god because when we are born you lack belief in any gods. Even if you presented about god when you are born you still wouldn't believe in it. So you are born without a god so it would be impossible to be agnostic until you reach the age of understanding some concepts of god.

My brothers argument about this is that you don't know if god is real or not so you can't deny that god is real or not to be atheist.

But until you are presented information about god you can't say he is real or not, but when you are born you don't believe in any god.


So are you born agnostic or atheist?

You are born knowing nothing.

Creationists manage to stay that way.

I would say you are both atheist and agnostice when you are born. Atheism and agnosticism can BOTH be held at the same time you know.

(June 27, 2011 at 6:10 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: I would say you are both atheist and agnostic when you are born. Atheism and agnosticism can BOTH be held at the same time you know.

Wrong. You have absolutely no understanding of anything beyond your most immediate physical needs.

You're born a baby.

You have no opinion on deities until you learn about them, although atheism is of course a position of ignorance

I'd venture to say your argument has more merit. I do believe everyone is born atheist. Without god.

God and religion are concepts that are taught to an open mind that has no prior knowledge of them. The concept has to be introduced, because one is not born with knowledge of god else religions would not practice in faith, they'd celebrate as fact.

The agnostic variable that your brother supports would mean that at birth one bears an innate sense the causal factor behind all that exists will never be known and yet, affords the optimism that there is a probability factor inherent in all that exists that may indeed stand to reveal it's source.

After birth is when one is imprinted with the subjective references that define our reality. Atheism, everyone is born an atheist, is simply that what describes born without knowledge of human god concepts, which must be taught. The agnostic potential contrary to that, given the factors that define agnosticism, is something that must be rationalized. Which precludes that being the condition inherent in newborns, who are irrational.

At least that's how I see the argument.

(June 27, 2011 at 6:10 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: I would say you are both atheist and agnostice when you are born. Atheism and agnosticism can BOTH be held at the same time you know.

You got it exactly right. When you are born, you have neither 'knowledge of', nor 'belief of' gods of any description. Hence... you are both agnostic and atheistic. from that point on, it is taught/learned.

I don't know, theory of mind an all that. Babies have no concept of things existing outside of their own perception. Maybe they see themselves as gods and us as their servants?

Do they learn they can have an effect on their environment before they develop their theory of mind...?

I'll answer your argument: you are born with 5 legs, but 1 is chopped off. That is why you have never felt complete and have always felt violated.

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(June 27, 2011 at 6:33 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: You're born a baby.

You have no opinion on deities until you learn about them, although atheism is of course a position of ignorance

^ what he says. So obviously agnostic.

You do not have a frame of reference to evaluate religious / non-religious belief when you are born. And also because you have insufficiient mental capacity to make such a decision anyway. In order for one to be whatever, then it is logical that one is aware. Not being aware that there may or may not be a God is not the same as believing or not believing it when one has given the subject detailed scrutiny. How is it possible to be an atheist / agnostic when one has no understanding of what one is and has yet to develop language, reason, comprehension and memory ? When you are born you only respond to physical stimuli such as hunger and sleep. A baby that has to cry in order to communicate its feelings is not intellectually capable of dealing with anything other than its immediate biological needs. Incidentally Islam teaches that everyone is born a Muslim. That position is equally untenable.