(February 14, 2017 at 4:29 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(February 14, 2017 at 4:22 pm)paulpablo Wrote: Of course.
But speaking practically it makes no sense in the context of that conversation to be talking about the justification going on inside someone's own head.
If that's the case every action is justified.

So what? All justification is subjective anyway. I know this is going to sound "dopey" to you, but "inside someone's head" is exactly where the justification happens. And even more shockingly, just because someone takes what they consider to be a justified action, you aren't compelled to agree with them! Can you imagine that?!

This subjectivity thing ... you've really got to check it out, little buddy. It's some crazy shit, dude.

No I do know what you mean.
I agree it's subjective.

What I'm saying is that in the practical use of the word what is the use in saying something is justified in their own mind?

If I say Hitler's actions against the Jews are justifiable it's reasonable for someone to assume that I mean that I think they are right because of certain reasons.

Saying someone's actions are justified in their own mind means nothing because every action that isn't involuntary must be justified in their own mind.
It renders the word useless. It's a peice of useless information.
Me slapping someone around the head was justified. Why? Because at the time I myself considered it to be justified because I found it entertaining and valued my own entertainment more than the persons well being who I slapped.

(February 14, 2017 at 4:26 pm)paulpablo Wrote: No I still don't think the merits of a cause can be assessed by how willing people are to die for the cause.

Because as we've already spoke about some people are simply mentally unhinged, brainwashed and so on.

Take for example the cult of rev jim jones or the the heavens gate cult who took their own lives for the cause of their cult leaders.

Oh ffs..here we go again.  

Do you think that african american protesters, as a specific example, are mentally unhinged in their violent response to 150 years of demonstrable and historical disenfranchisement and violent oppression?  Do you think that they're a cult?  Do you think that they intend to commit suicide for their cult leaders?

For a guy so seemingly hung up on individual justifications your assessment of theirs is conspicuously lacking. Instead, you want to babble about islamic terrorism, crazy people, jim jones, and heavens gate.

(February 14, 2017 at 4:48 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(February 14, 2017 at 4:26 pm)paulpablo Wrote: No I still don't think the merits of a cause can be assessed by how willing people are to die for the cause.

Because as we've already spoke about some people are simply mentally unhinged, brainwashed and so on.

Take for example the cult of rev jim jones or the the heavens gate cult who took their own lives for the cause of their cult leaders.

Oh ffs..here we go again.  

Do you think that african american protesters, as a specific example, are mentally unhinged in their violent response to 150 years of demonstrable and historical disenfranchisement and violent oppression?  Do you think that they're a cult?  Do you think that they intend to commit suicide for their cult leaders?

For a guy so seemingly hung up on individual justifications your assessment of theirs is conspicuously lacking. Instead, you want to babble about islamic terrorism, crazy people, jim jones, and heavens gate.

Do I think African Americans are a cult? No.

Glad you cleared all of that up, thanks.  

Just to clear up my opinion on the various things spoke about up to now.

If what you originally meant is that the protesters actions are justifiable.....to someone somewhere at some point in time.

I agree.

I've already stated that I think it's wrong to put mertit to the fact someone is willing to die for a cause.
So on the basis I think it's wrong on principle to put merit that an individual is willing to die.
By extension I have no reason not to extend that principle to groups of people.

And when I'm speaking I'm speaking universally.
About all groups of people.
yes I am speaking about cults and mentally unhinged people because they exist.
Because they exist is the reason why I can't say that a person or groups cause has more merit if they're willing to die for that cause.

It would be hypocritical of me to say one groups cause has merit, the reason being because they're willing to die for that cause, but not this other group.
I might be able to find other reasons to agree with that groups cause but that reason can't be because they're willing to die.
If I'm being honest I can't speak hypocritically I have to be universal.

Oh, just trying to avoid being hypocritical, are you?    


Try this.  Some groups cause has merit -and- the proponents of that cause are committed enough to risk their lives - adding an additional wrinkle and seriousness that does not exist where proponents are not.  Or, you know...

"Hur dur, black block!"

10 minutes ago you were all about individual merits and now it's an issue of universality.  Make up your mind, or, better yet... just go ask the people who have made up your mind for you what your opinion should be.

(February 14, 2017 at 5:20 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Oh, just trying to avoid being hypocritical, are you?    


Try this.  Some groups cause has merit -and- the proponents of that cause are committed enough to risk their lives - adding an additional wrinkle and seriousness that does not exist where proponents are not.  Or, you know...

"Hur dur, black block!"

10 minutes ago you were all about individual merits and now it's an issue of universality.  Make up your mind, or, better yet... just go ask the people who have made up your mind for you what your opinion should be.

I don't know what black block is, I saw you reference it when talking to abaris before and didn't know what it meant then.

It's very simple. I'm talking about the merits of individual cases and applying the same standard universally.

So I can't say this group here has some merits based on the fact that they're willing to die for their cause but that cult over there is crazy because they're willing to die for their cause.

If I'm honest and non hypocritial then I have to judge both groups based on merits beyond the factor of how much their willing to die.

And that works for any individual also.

(February 14, 2017 at 5:48 pm)paulpablo Wrote: I don't know what black block is, I saw you reference it when talking to abaris before and didn't know what it meant then.

It's very simple. I'm talking about the merits of individual cases and applying the same standard universally.

So I can't say this group here has some merits based on the fact that they're willing to die for their cause but that cult over there is crazy because they're willing to die for their cause.

Radical suggestion...maybe their willingness to die for their cause is based upon something other than mental instability in both cases?  Like.....an actual grievance?  

(the black block are those people that abaris mentioned and, to hear you tell it, make bumfights videos and riot because it's cool and/or profitable, just out to start shit..you know, the only group of protesters you deigned to comment on specifically)

Quote:If I'm honest and non hypocritial then I have to judge both groups based on merits beyond the factor of how much their willing to die.

Omitting that commitment in your metrics probably won't give you a full view of their case, cause, and motivations.

Quote:And that works for any individual also.

Apparently not.  You've told us what you think about cults and crazy people and terrorists, but have avoided any specific assessment of a specific group wtih a specific set of grievances that have resorted to violence in specific instances.

(February 14, 2017 at 5:48 pm)paulpablo Wrote: I don't know what black block is, I saw you reference it when talking to abaris before and didn't know what it meant then.

The Black Block are international trouble makers much like 4chan are international trolls. They have no real agenda other than wreaking havock, thereby dragging real causes into their dirt by showing up at peaceful protests to riot. In Europe as well as the States obviously.

The two of you seem to share a common information source.  Wonder how that happened?