Atwater Wrote:The International Association for Near-Death Studies sent out a questionnaire in 1992 inquiring about those who considered themselves to be near-death experiencers. How close had they been to physical death when their episode occurred? ... 37 percent had theirs in a setting unrelated to anything that could be construed as life threatening. ... The 37 percenters claimed to have experiences every bit as real, involved, and life-changing as those that happened to people during death or close-brush-with-death crises; and their reports duplicate or parallel the same spread of scenario types and a pattern of psychological and physiological aftereffects.

— P.M.H. Atwater, The Big Book of Near-Death Experiences

(March 25, 2017 at 7:22 am)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(March 25, 2017 at 6:27 am)Little Rik Wrote: Induced experiences work on the pineal gland forcing this gland to open up and allow a blissful feeling.
In this case the consciousness does not leave the pineal gland or the body or the brain.
NDEs on the other hand are a natural phenomenon.
As soon as the body-brain die the consciousness that lie in the pineal gland separate from the dead body.
The two things have similarities in the fact that both affect the consciousness but all the rest is totally different.

This is nothing but religious dogma.  You have no scientific backing for these speculations.  In other words, this is all bullshit.

Nobody knows the exact role of the pineal gland in brain function and certainly not you.

http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013...eal-gland/

(March 25, 2017 at 7:34 pm)Little Rik Wrote:

(March 25, 2017 at 7:22 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: This is nothing but religious dogma.  You have no scientific backing for these speculations.  In other words, this is all bullshit.

Nobody knows the exact role of the pineal gland in brain function and certainly not you.

http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013...eal-gland/

You're really a dumbfuck. That's a speculative popular article about what the pineal gland may be. That doesn't even come close to providing scientific backing for your claims.

(March 25, 2017 at 6:27 am)Little Rik Wrote: It is a fact that atheists load their mind with a myriad of dogmas such as those that I previously mention.

Given that atheism is the absence of a belief in any deity, I don't understand it to be this way. 

Quote:So your evidence that science deny God vanished into nothingness.   

Give me an example of a phenomena studied by science that invokes a deity.

Quote:At the same time science DOES NOT provide evidence against so why don't you stop mention science

when in fact science know nothing about soul or NDEs?   

It provides evidence for explanations of these phenomena, so yeah it does. The soul fails as a hypothesis in science, it is and remains religious dogma.

Quote:Wrong once again Atheo.
Evidence is there At.
Doctors declared a person 100% dead so a dead brain can possibly come up with an NDE.

The people here also had functioning cortex's, which is where the NDEs arise.

Quote:How the physical science win when dealing with something totally outside her competence such as the 

consciousness and the NDEs experiences?

The answer is that it turns out not to be outside of scientific competence.

Quote:Son.  

Stop the garbage and rather try to understand what the word competencies means.   

Have a good day mate.  

Not garbage, science and logic.

(March 25, 2017 at 9:43 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(March 25, 2017 at 7:34 pm)Little Rik Wrote: http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013...eal-gland/

You're really a dumbfuck.  That's a speculative popular article about what the pineal gland may be. That doesn't even come close to providing scientific backing for your claims.

Imbecile    that article show that for thousand years different spiritual people living east-west, north-south
and everywhere in between were already aware of the importance of the pineal gland.
What instead your scientific studies did in the meantime?

NOTHING yog, absolutely nothing.    

Still to these days science know nothing about the role of the pineal gland except that secrete melatonin.

What a big deal yog!  
Do me a favor yog.
Come back to me when science will discover what the pineal gland is there for.
In the meantime please go back to sleep.  

(March 26, 2017 at 8:00 am)Little Rik Wrote:

(March 25, 2017 at 9:43 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: You're really a dumbfuck.  That's a speculative popular article about what the pineal gland may be. That doesn't even come close to providing scientific backing for your claims.

Imbecile    that article show that for thousand years different spiritual people living east-west, north-south
and everywhere in between were already aware of the importance of the pineal gland.
What instead your scientific studies did in the meantime?

Dumbfuck, that article didn't even back up the specific claims you made. It just rambled on about other people's claims. And claims by themselves don't amount to "awareness". All they are is speculation. Guesses, nothing more. They "guess" that the pineal gland is important, but they don't "know" anything. So your article amounts to a big fat nothing. For thousands of years people were "aware" that the earth was flat as well. Look how that turned out.

(March 26, 2017 at 8:00 am)Little Rik Wrote: NOTHING yog, absolutely nothing.    

Still to these days science know nothing about the role of the pineal gland except that secrete melatonin.

So the fuck what? All that these traditions know about the purpose of the pineal gland is a big fat nothing as well. The traditions make all sorts of guesses, which are worthless. They don't know the purpose of the pineal gland anymore than science does. And their guesses weren't the same as yours anyway, so how in hell does that provide support for you? It doesn't.

(March 26, 2017 at 8:00 am)Little Rik Wrote: What a big deal yog!  
Do me a favor yog.
Come back to me when science will discover what the pineal gland is there for.

No, you do me a favor and shut up with these stupid claims about the pineal gland which you can't even back up with other people's guesses. When you have actual evidence that the pineal gland functions in the way you've claimed, then you can talk. Until then, it's been established that you have no evidence showing that induced experiences are different from NDEs. You've just got a failed attempt at providing support. For all your evidence can say, NDEs are induced experiences.

(March 26, 2017 at 8:00 am)Little Rik Wrote: In the meantime please go back to sleep.

Can't handle me, huh? That's no surprise, because you're a fucking loser who can't even support his own case even with made up guesses. What a buffoon.

(March 26, 2017 at 12:33 am)TheAtheologian Wrote:

(March 25, 2017 at 6:27 am)Little Rik Wrote: It is a fact that atheists load their mind with a myriad of dogmas such as those that I previously mention.

Given that atheism is the absence of a belief in any deity, I don't understand it to be this way.

You don't get it Atheo, do you?
Atheists do not keep in their mind only the idea that there is no deity.
They do keep in their mind a myriad of dogmas as previously posted.

If only they would only keep in their mind the....... absence of a belief in any deity.........as you write would not even be that bad but they don't because their mind is loaded with a myriad of different dogmas.

Quote:So your evidence that science deny God vanished into nothingness.   

Quote:Give me an example of a phenomena studied by science that invokes a deity.

Stop there Atheo.  
Don't you know the rule that the one who come up with a statement is the one who got to back up such a statement with evidence.

You are the one who said that science disprove God existence.
Where is that evidence mate?    

Quote:At the same time science DOES NOT provide evidence against so why don't you stop mention science

when in fact science know nothing about soul or NDEs?   

Quote:It provides evidence for explanations of these phenomena, so yeah it does. The soul fails as a hypothesis in science, it is and remains religious dogma.

Hypothesis are like farts unless these hypothesis are follow by evidence.
So far there is no evidence about these hypothesis that is why they are confined in the corral of farts.    

Quote:Wrong once again Atheo.
Evidence is there At.
Doctors declared a person 100% dead so a dead brain can possibly come up with an NDE.

Quote:The people here also had functioning cortex's, which is where the NDEs arise.

Do me a favor Atheo.
Stop guessing.
There are experts in the field that even they after years of study are unable to come up with any concluding evidence.
Have a look at this link just to see that even years of studies were unable come up with any conclusion.

http://deanradin.com/evidence/vanLommel2006.pdf

Quote:How the physical science win when dealing with something totally outside her competence such as the 
consciousness and the NDEs experiences?

Quote:The answer is that it turns out not to be outside of scientific competence.

I guess you never thought what the word PHYSICAL means Atheo?
And I also guess you never understand what is the difference between something abstract and something physical?
Did you Atheo?    

Quote:Son.  

Stop the garbage and rather try to understand what the word competencies means.   

Have a good day mate.  

Quote:Not garbage, science and logic.

Come back when science will have discovered something about consciousness, NDEs and whether we die or not when our body die.
In the meantime please don't tired your brain too much in the effort of turning a guessing into evidence.
Look after yourself brother.  

---

(March 26, 2017 at 9:29 am)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(March 26, 2017 at 8:00 am)Little Rik Wrote: Imbecile    that article show that for thousand years different spiritual people living east-west, north-south
and everywhere in between were already aware of the importance of the pineal gland.
What instead your scientific studies did in the meantime?

Dumbfuck, that article didn't even back up the specific claims you made.  It just rambled on about other people's claims.  And claims by themselves don't amount to "awareness".  All they are is speculation.  Guesses, nothing more.  They "guess" that the pineal gland is important, but they don't "know" anything.  So your article amounts to a big fat nothing.  For thousands of years people were "aware" that the earth was flat as well.  Look how that turned out.

(March 26, 2017 at 8:00 am)Little Rik Wrote: NOTHING yog, absolutely nothing.    

Still to these days science know nothing about the role of the pineal gland except that secrete melatonin.

So the fuck what?  All these traditions know about the purpose of the pineal gland is a big fat nothing as well.  The traditions make all sorts of guesses, which are worthless.  They don't know the purpose of the pineal gland anymore than science does.  And their guesses weren't the same as yours anyway, so how in hell does that provide support for you?  It doesn't.

(March 26, 2017 at 8:00 am)Little Rik Wrote: What a big deal yog!  
Do me a favor yog.
Come back to me when science will discover what the pineal gland is there for.

No, you do me a favor and shut up with these stupid claims about the pineal gland which you can't even back up with other people's guesses.  When you have actual evidence that the pineal gland functions in the way you've claimed, then you can talk.  Until then, it's been established that you have no evidence showing that induced experiences are different from NDEs.  You've just got a failed attempt at providing support.  For all your evidence can say, NDEs are induced experiences.

(March 26, 2017 at 8:00 am)Little Rik Wrote: In the meantime please go back to sleep.  

Can't handle me, huh?  That's no surprise, because you're a fucking loser who can't even support his own case even with made up guesses.  What a buffoon.

Imbecile.  

When the people of the past thought that the earth was flat they did not struggle their mind.
They just went on with their lives as before but when they realized that the pineal gland is the
passage that allow them to leave the finite and into the infinite they struggle day after day to reach
the pineal gland with their consciousness.

That is a huge difference yog.

You never thought about that, did you?      

(March 26, 2017 at 9:41 am)Little Rik Wrote:

(March 26, 2017 at 9:29 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: Dumbfuck, that article didn't even back up the specific claims you made.  It just rambled on about other people's claims.  And claims by themselves don't amount to "awareness".  All they are is speculation.  Guesses, nothing more.  They "guess" that the pineal gland is important, but they don't "know" anything.  So your article amounts to a big fat nothing.  For thousands of years people were "aware" that the earth was flat as well.  Look how that turned out.


So the fuck what?  All these traditions know about the purpose of the pineal gland is a big fat nothing as well.  The traditions make all sorts of guesses, which are worthless.  They don't know the purpose of the pineal gland anymore than science does.  And their guesses weren't the same as yours anyway, so how in hell does that provide support for you?  It doesn't.


No, you do me a favor and shut up with these stupid claims about the pineal gland which you can't even back up with other people's guesses.  When you have actual evidence that the pineal gland functions in the way you've claimed, then you can talk.  Until then, it's been established that you have no evidence showing that induced experiences are different from NDEs.  You've just got a failed attempt at providing support.  For all your evidence can say, NDEs are induced experiences.


Can't handle me, huh?  That's no surprise, because you're a fucking loser who can't even support his own case even with made up guesses.  What a buffoon.

Imbecile.  

When the people of the past thought that the earth was flat they did not struggle their mind.
They just went on with their lives as before but when they realized that the pineal gland is the
passage that allow them to leave the finite and into the infinite they struggle day after day to reach
the pineal gland with their consciousness.

They didn't "realize" any such thing. They made guesses about the function of the pineal gland. Guesses which are yet to be confirmed by any evidence. So it's all just bullshit and religious dogma, exactly like what you're peddling here.

(March 26, 2017 at 9:41 am)Little Rik Wrote: That is a huge difference yog.

Yeah there's a huge difference. The people who thought the earth was flat actually had evidence in the appearance of the ground around them. The people who speculate about the function of the pineal gland just have stuff they pulled from their asses. Like you, little rik. You've got nothing but shit for evidence that the pineal gland has anything to do with either consciousness or induced experiences. All you've got is a bunch of dogma that says that it does. In other words, all that you've got is shit.

(March 26, 2017 at 9:41 am)Little Rik Wrote: You never thought about that, did you?      

Neither have you (thought about it). All you've done is absorb the bullshit pulled from other people's asses. That's not thinking. That's the opposite of thinking.

I think logic is what ever Sam Harris says it is.

That been said about logic.

I'm done with it. What Sam Harris says about logic, that's it!

Who/what cares about what logic is anyway?

Who/what?

Serious question!

(March 26, 2017 at 9:41 am)Little Rik Wrote: You don't get it Atheo, do you?
Atheists do not keep in their mind only the idea that there is no deity.
They do keep in their mind a myriad of dogmas as previously posted.

These other views would be independent of atheism, since atheism is nothing more than the lack of a belief in any deity/god.

Quote:Stop there Atheo.   

Don't you know the rule that the one who come up with a statement is the one who got to back up such a statement with evidence.

Yes, I know of it.

Quote:You are the one who said that science disprove God existence.

Where is that evidence mate?    

I said science is getting farther and farther away from god and the theist model is increasingly contradicted by science and already provided an example. The universe is large to the point that humans are insignificant and the inanimate beginning of the universe is disconnected from cosmic evolution that occurred after the singularity. Theism requires a guaranteed animate universe due to the necessitation of the deity's cause. However, it isn't guaranteed, so a contradiction exists and increases since our existence seems more and more insignificant. 
You could disprove that science is leaving theism if you provide one example of science demonstrating a deity as an explanation of a specific phenomena. It seems you are not willing to (because you can't).

Quote:Hypothesis are like farts unless these hypothesis are follow by evidence.

So far there is no evidence about these hypothesis that is why they are confined in the corral of farts.    

I already provided evidence, stimulating certain areas of the brain give rise to hallucination produced by the brain.

Quote:There are experts in the field that even they after years of study are unable to come up with any concluding evidence.
Have a look at this link just to see that even years of studies were unable come up with any conclusion.

http://deanradin.com/evidence/vanLommel2006.pdf

Finally, you provided a source. 
Based on what you said, these are survivors of death who required a functioning brain (otherwise they wouldn't be alive), NDEs are Near death experiences, so they were alive to produce these hallucinations. There is no evidence of brain dead people being able to have experiences, but there is evidence of brain alive people being able to have experiences. As for your source, his case includes objections to other explanations and therefore thinks that the failure to provide explanations results in reason to believe consciousness is independent of the brain. However, he fails to demonstrate explanations fail.
He acknowledged the evidence that certain phenomena can stimulate an NDE:

Quote:Yet, neurophysiologic processes must play some part in NDE, because NDElike experiences can be induced through electrical “stimulation” of some parts of the cortex in patients with epilepsy (Penfield, 1958), with high carbon dioxide levels (hypercarbia) (Meduna, 1950), in decreased cerebral perfusion resulting in local cerebral hypoxia, as in rapid acceleration during training of fighter pilots (Whinnery and Whinnery, 1990), or as in hyperventilation followed by Valsalva maneuver (Lempert et al., 1994). Also NDE-like experiences have been reported after the use of drugs like ketamine (Jansen, 1996), LSD (Grof and Halifax, 1977), or mushrooms (Schr¨oter-Kunhardt, 1999). These induced experiences can result in a period of unconsciousness, but can also sometimes consist of perception of sound, light, or flashes of recollections from the past.

His response?:

Quote:These recollections, however, consist of fragmented and random memories unlike the panoramic life-review that can occur in NDE. Also, exceptionally out-of-body experiences can occur during induced experiences. However, transformational processes are rarely reported after induced experiences. Thus, induced experiences are not identical to NDE.

First of all, many NDE's including the heaven experiences are relatable by people in their previous life (especially with religion). I provided evidence that out of the body experiences can indeed occur with stimulation of the the right temporoparietal junction. "Walking corpse" syndrome can give the delusional belief that someone is deceased. Indeed, even hallucinations of a person have been reported by simple atificial stimulation of the brain, so transformational processes are definitely capable of happening from the brain.

It makes sense why Dick Swaab* (Neurologist) claims the author Pim Van Lommel does not refute current neurological explanations and fails to give scientific basis for his perspective.

*In his book We are our Brains: From the womb to Alzheimer's 

Quote:I guess you never thought what the word PHYSICAL means Atheo?

And I also guess you never understand what is the difference between something abstract and something physical?

Now you are claiming the mind connects to "abstract objects"?

Quote:Come back when science will have discovered something about consciousness, NDEs and whether we die or not when our body die.
In the meantime please don't tired your brain too much in the effort of turning a guessing into evidence.
Look after yourself brother.  

Not guessing, but evidence. To you, not knowing is evidence of the supernatural. That has been the basis of religion and nothing more than pseudoscience.