(March 30, 2017 at 10:31 am)Harry Nevis Wrote: The "laws" are descriptive, not proscriptive.

Can you prove that? Probably not, since nominalism, which is from where that notion comes, is self-defeating.

(March 30, 2017 at 10:14 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote:

(March 30, 2017 at 9:57 am)SteveII Wrote: First, you have obviously not read back through the posts for the past 9 pages. 

Yes, the initial constants could have been different. There is nothing that makes them the way they are. That is not debated. Therefore, the universe is NOT the way it is out of necessity.

I think this also brings up an interesting question from a teleological perspective.  Are the laws of physics emergent (properties of matter itself) or are they governed by something greater and existing before the matter of the universe was formed?  To put it another way; does the material conform to the laws of physics, or is physics based on the material?

A finite mind would have had the physical laws in mind before creating matter. But I suppose an omniscient mind could have put that together simultaneously.

(March 30, 2017 at 11:20 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(March 30, 2017 at 10:31 am)Harry Nevis Wrote: The "laws" are descriptive, not proscriptive.

Can you prove that? Probably not, since nominalism, which is from where that notion comes, is self-defeating.

Can you prove that Allah didn't do it?
Can you prove Yahweh didn't do it?
Can you prove Brahma didn't do it?

Nope sorry, not our job to prove anything. We are not claiming any type of deity created the laws of the universe.

---

(March 30, 2017 at 11:23 am)SteveII Wrote:

(March 30, 2017 at 10:14 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: I think this also brings up an interesting question from a teleological perspective.  Are the laws of physics emergent (properties of matter itself) or are they governed by something greater and existing before the matter of the universe was formed?  To put it another way; does the material conform to the laws of physics, or is physics based on the material?

A finite mind would have had the physical laws in mind before creating matter. But I suppose an omniscient mind could have put that together simultaneously.

Bullshit. Trees don't have brains and funny how you don't think a tree god created them. A finite mind. Nope, there is just your brain in motion. Our consciousness does not survive us. Once your brain dies your consciousness dies, you die, it is the end of you. There is no "forever" not for humans, not for trees, not even for our planet or sun. 

Funny how we never see a decapitated human come back to life. Try blowing up your car(dont try that at home), and see if you can drive it right after you blow it up.

(March 30, 2017 at 10:50 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(March 30, 2017 at 10:39 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: A bit of a change of topic.

But, you mention "feelings" quite a few times there, and I wouldn't answer your "why" question like that.  Your questions seem loaded with assumptions, that do not reflect me.

Nice doge, but don't feel bad, most believers never try to tackle that question.

AGAIN, you refuse to answer the why to yourself because you are afraid that will destroy your illusion. 

I have no problem answering the question of "why I believe".  I do think about it, and have answered a number of times here before.  I also look at from an internal perspective.  I think you psychic abilities are defective today. Or perhaps you are having difficulty letting go of your illusion!

Quote:You already agreed that the "fine tuning" does not point to a specific deity/god/s/God.

I agree, it does not.

So again, why do you feel the need to plop any god claim into the gap? It seems to me you already rightfully reject all other claims besides the one you feel you need. Funny how you don't feel the need to believe all the ones you rightfully reject. I am being very fair to you because my question is the same regardless of religion.

We already discussed this...  1)  You keep trying to interject the word "feel" into my position.  2.)  We where discussing this... you seem to want to change the topic.  If you are just going to dis-reguard what I said previously and insert a tired strawman, I don't see any reason to repeat myself.

Quote:Why do you feel the need to select the one you did? Not what, but why? Why do you not worry about being punished by Allah, or Yahweh or Pele?

Again, you seem to be trying to interject positions, that I do not hold here, and are not based on anything that I have stated thus far. Which makes me hesitant to answer.  As to why I believe in the description of God that I do, that is gong to be based on historical evidence. And it is based on taking the different conclusions and evidence together to see what matches the best.

Quote:Why are you not afraid of your pre life? You didn't exist 5 million years ago.  Do you think anything horrible will happen to you if you suddenly figure out this is it?

No, unless what I figure is wrong.

(March 30, 2017 at 11:36 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote:

(March 30, 2017 at 10:50 am)Brian37 Wrote: Nice doge, but don't feel bad, most believers never try to tackle that question.

AGAIN, you refuse to answer the why to yourself because you are afraid that will destroy your illusion. 

I have no problem answering the question of "why I believe".  I do think about it, and have answered a number of times here before.  I also look at from an internal perspective.  I think you psychic abilities are defective today. Or perhaps you are having difficulty letting go of your illusion!

Quote:You already agreed that the "fine tuning" does not point to a specific deity/god/s/God.

I agree, it does not.

So again, why do you feel the need to plop any god claim into the gap? It seems to me you already rightfully reject all other claims besides the one you feel you need. Funny how you don't feel the need to believe all the ones you rightfully reject. I am being very fair to you because my question is the same regardless of religion.

We already discussed this...  1)  You keep trying to interject the word "feel" into my position.  2.)  We where discussing this... you seem to want to change the topic.  If you are just going to dis-reguard what I said previously and insert a tired strawman, I don't see any reason to repeat myself.

Quote:Why do you feel the need to select the one you did? Not what, but why? Why do you not worry about being punished by Allah, or Yahweh or Pele?

Again, you seem to be trying to interject positions, that I do not hold here, and are not based on anything that I have stated thus far. Which makes me hesitant to answer.  As to why I believe in the description of God that I do, that is gong to be based on historical evidence. And it is based on taking the different conclusions and evidence together to see what matches the best.

Quote:Why are you not afraid of your pre life? You didn't exist 5 million years ago.  Do you think anything horrible will happen to you if you suddenly figure out this is it?

No, unless what I figure is wrong.

Still stubbornly clinging desperately so let me help you out.

"No" is the only correct part of your last sentence, no need to go further. Nothing bad will happen to you if you figure out this is it. You will still have ups and downs, and even bad things happen in your life, and yes ultimately you will die. What you DONT have to fear is is being tortured forever. Just like you don't fear being tortured by Allah or Pele or any Mayan god. 

There is no sky hero there to promise you an eternity of ice cream and cookies, but there is also no sky  bully there to beat the shit out of you for not kissing his ass.

There, is that simple enough for you? You aren't afraid of all the other god claims you rightfully reject so do yourself a favor and free yourself from your own needless illusion. 

It wont kill you to accept your finite existence. You can still live your life and feel joy and love just like enjoying a movie or concert or book and all those things have an end too.

Join the dark side Luke.......

(March 30, 2017 at 11:54 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(March 30, 2017 at 11:36 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: I have no problem answering the question of "why I believe".  I do think about it, and have answered a number of times here before.  I also look at from an internal perspective.  I think you psychic abilities are defective today. Or perhaps you are having difficulty letting go of your illusion!


We already discussed this...  1)  You keep trying to interject the word "feel" into my position.  2.)  We where discussing this... you seem to want to change the topic.  If you are just going to dis-reguard what I said previously and insert a tired strawman, I don't see any reason to repeat myself.


Again, you seem to be trying to interject positions, that I do not hold here, and are not based on anything that I have stated thus far. Which makes me hesitant to answer.  As to why I believe in the description of God that I do, that is gong to be based on historical evidence. And it is based on taking the different conclusions and evidence together to see what matches the best.


No, unless what I figure is wrong.

Still stubbornly clinging desperately so let me help you out.

"No" is the only correct part of your last sentence, no need to go further. Nothing bad will happen to you if you figure out this is it. You will still have ups and downs, and even bad things happen in your life, and yes ultimately you will die. What you DONT have to fear is is being tortured forever. Just like you don't fear being tortured by Allah or Pele or any Mayan god. 

There is no sky hero there to promise you an eternity of ice cream and cookies, but there is also no sky  bully there to beat the shit out of you for not kissing his ass.

There, is that simple enough for you? You aren't afraid of all the other god claims you rightfully reject so do yourself a favor and free yourself from your own needless illusion. 

It wont kill you to accept your finite existence. You can still live your life and feel joy and love just like enjoying a movie or concert or book and all those things have an end too.

Join the dark side Luke.......

That is a lot of claims for someone who was shifting the burden of proof just a few minutes ago (out of context; I may also add).
Now it is my turn to ask why?  What evidence or reason do you give for these claims?

(March 30, 2017 at 12:00 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:

(March 30, 2017 at 11:54 am)Brian37 Wrote: Still stubbornly clinging desperately so let me help you out.

"No" is the only correct part of your last sentence, no need to go further. Nothing bad will happen to you if you figure out this is it. You will still have ups and downs, and even bad things happen in your life, and yes ultimately you will die. What you DONT have to fear is is being tortured forever. Just like you don't fear being tortured by Allah or Pele or any Mayan god. 

There is no sky hero there to promise you an eternity of ice cream and cookies, but there is also no sky  bully there to beat the shit out of you for not kissing his ass.

There, is that simple enough for you? You aren't afraid of all the other god claims you rightfully reject so do yourself a favor and free yourself from your own needless illusion. 

It wont kill you to accept your finite existence. You can still live your life and feel joy and love just like enjoying a movie or concert or book and all those things have an end too.

Join the dark side Luke.......

That is a lot of claims for someone who was shifting the burden of proof just a few minutes ago (out of context; I may also add).
Now it is my turn to ask why?  What evidence or reason do you give for these claims?

Again sorry, but this is the same dodge everyone of every religion gives. 

We are finite, sorry you don't like that. I am trying to help you escape your fantasy. 

13.8 year old universe and you'd have me believe some old and unscientific book of myth explains shit?

Everything has a shelf life all the way down to atoms. Atoms cannot act like an entire in tact functioning brain. Break down the functioning highway into unusable pieces it will not be in tact. If you really think you survive your death we should expect to see neutral experiments where you could decapitate a human head, re attach it and have it function as if nothing happened. Same with our planet, all it would take to kill our planet and all life on it is a meteor or commit bigger than what killed the dinosaurs, like the commit that hit Jupiter a few years back. 

The sun as well has finite fuel and it will burn out, collapse or expand and eventually die. 

If you already reject rightfully the afterlife myths of other religions, even the pre life reincarnation and post life reincarnation myths of even Hinduism and Buddhism, as well as the afterlife myths of Jews and Muslims and the Ancient Egyptians then you should have no problem ditching even your own position. 

You are scared of being finite. No I don't mean death, just not being around as a consciousness forever. I am saying there is nothing to be afraid of about not existing just like you are not afraid of what it was like 5 million years ago.

(March 30, 2017 at 9:57 am)SteveII Wrote:

(March 30, 2017 at 9:14 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: What is not a fact is that the universal constants could have been different. You have only arbitrarily asserted physical necessity is not the reason for the fine-tuning of the universe, not ruled it out by any rational process. I'm sure there's a Nobel waiting for the person who can do that.

Not to mention that there's no mechanism for universe generation that would not just keep spewing them out, so there's no way to rule out chance from near infinite opportunities, either.

2. fails spectacularly.

---

For the love of reason, you can't be this dense. You haven't given a reason why design is more probable than necessity or chance. Without that, it's 2 to one against.

First, you have obviously not read back through the posts for the past 9 pages. 

Yes, the initial constants could have been different. There is nothing that makes them the way they are. That is not debated. Therefore, the universe is NOT the way it is out of necessity.

This is flat out wrong.

Quote: The desire to explain the constants has been one of the driving forces behind efforts to develop a complete unified description of nature, or theory of everything. Physicists have hoped that such a theory would show that each of the constants of nature could have only one logically possible value.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/artic...s-2006-02/

The only place that you've ruled out necessity is in your fevered imagination. A corollary of this fact is that any calculation of how improbable the current physical constants are is based on nothing but hot air. Nobody knows the ranges these values can take, nor even if they can take other values. Your statements here are nothing but fancy lies.

(March 30, 2017 at 12:20 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(March 30, 2017 at 9:57 am)SteveII Wrote: First, you have obviously not read back through the posts for the past 9 pages. 

Yes, the initial constants could have been different. There is nothing that makes them the way they are. That is not debated. Therefore, the universe is NOT the way it is out of necessity.

This is flat out wrong.

Quote: The desire to explain the constants has been one of the driving forces behind efforts to develop a complete unified description of nature, or theory of everything. Physicists have hoped that such a theory would show that each of the constants of nature could have only one logically possible value.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/artic...s-2006-02/

The only place that you've ruled out necessity is in your fevered imagination.  A corollary of this fact is that any calculation of how improbable the current physical constants are is based on nothing but hot air.  Nobody knows the ranges these values can take, nor even if they can take other values.  Your statements here are nothing but fancy lies.

Yep, but everyone of every religion has convinced themselves of their fancy lies. For most humans it is easier to buy a comforting lie than it is to face a harsh reality.  They cant stand that an atheist can accept that harsh truth and still find good in the only life we have.

First of all, "either due to physical necessity, chance or design" is a false trichotomy. There are a million other candidate explanations for how the constants of the universe came to be as they are.

Most importantly though, there is absolutely no evidence that the physical constants of the universe were finely tuned. Even if the probability of the physical constants being suitable for the development of structure, galaxies, stars, planets and life is very low, that in no way supports the notion that the universe was finely tuned by some force, god or whatever - this has to be independently verified. It is also erroneous to claim as fact that it is "more likely" that the universe was finely tuned, because there has been no demonstration of the probability of the universe being finely tuned.