Debate them on your doorstep when they knock, with a brick.

We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in America, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our atheism, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender !!

an aside:

there are some consolations in growing old and remembering things that may yet be useful . . . .

(April 10, 2017 at 2:33 pm)Kernel Sohcahtoa Wrote:

(April 10, 2017 at 1:27 pm)Cephus Wrote: I know this is a stupid question, but is there anywhere to go to debate theists that isn't just a complete waste of time, either because of the quality of theist, or the bias of the forum?  I have yet to find anywhere that has intelligent theists, or worse, where the deck isn't stacked completely in the favor of theists, such that you're not allowed to question their beliefs, but they can attack you all day long.  I'm pretty sure such a place doesn't exist, but I figured I'd ask.

Out of curiosity, do you think that atheists and theists debating one another makes sense?  From my observations here, both sides seem to use terms differently.  For example, to my knowledge, regarding evidence, some theists (Christian) have written that they consider the NT, observations of reality, and their personal experiences with god as evidence of its existence, whereas some atheists have written that actual data that can stand up to the scientific scrutiny of repeated tests (conducted by different teams of qualified individuals) that yield the same results would be regarded as evidence for its existence.  Hence, how can one engage in a meaningful debate if both sides are applying different definitions to key terms that are at the heart of the debate?

Rather than a debate, would an open dialog between atheists and theists (assuming they wanted to participate) be helpful in clarifying misunderstandings and enabling both sides to learn more about the other?

Debate, dialog, I consider them the same thing.  Having a discussion about the relative merits of a position and expecting them to be backed up and handled rationally and logically. Unfortunately, theists are simply not interested in finding out what is actually true, they only want to rationalize their way to what makes them feel good.  They try to put a spin on reality because what reality actually is doesn't comfort their precious little fee fees.

But that's really the problem because rational people and religious people have diametrically opposed goals at heart.  They don't want to learn what's actually so.  They want to push their religious agenda on the world, facts be damned.  It doesn't matter how many times you point out that what they're doing is wrong, they want no part of it.  It's emotion, not intellect, that drives them.  That's why all debates or discussions or open dialogs between theists and intelligent people go awry.

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(April 10, 2017 at 2:58 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(April 10, 2017 at 1:27 pm)Cephus Wrote: I know this is a stupid question, but is there anywhere to go to debate theists that isn't just a complete waste of time, either because of the quality of theist, or the bias of the forum?  I have yet to find anywhere that has intelligent theists, or worse, where the deck isn't stacked completely in the favor of theists, such that you're not allowed to question their beliefs, but they can attack you all day long.  I'm pretty sure such a place doesn't exist, but I figured I'd ask.

Why, do you have an argument that hasn't been addressed a thousand times before?

Nope, just the same ones theists have entirely failed to address a thousand times before.

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(April 10, 2017 at 3:35 pm)Cyberman Wrote: Why not right here? I can't guarantee the quality of the theist, but at least there are some.

Just because there are theists doesn't mean there are worthwhile theists, which is what I'm looking for.  Then again, if they were worthwhile, they wouldn't be theists, would they?

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(April 10, 2017 at 4:18 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

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Seriously you might try debating with Catholic_Lady over the propriety of toilet humor on the internet.

She might be a nice person, but that doesn't mean I think she has a rational clue when it comes to religion.

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(April 10, 2017 at 5:35 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: Debate them on your doorstep when they knock, with a brick.

They don't come to my door anymore.  I'm on their black lists.  I know more about their religions than they do.

(April 10, 2017 at 5:43 pm)Cephus Wrote:

(April 10, 2017 at 2:33 pm)Kernel Sohcahtoa Wrote: Out of curiosity, do you think that atheists and theists debating one another makes sense?  From my observations here, both sides seem to use terms differently.  For example, to my knowledge, regarding evidence, some theists (Christian) have written that they consider the NT, observations of reality, and their personal experiences with god as evidence of its existence, whereas some atheists have written that actual data that can stand up to the scientific scrutiny of repeated tests (conducted by different teams of qualified individuals) that yield the same results would be regarded as evidence for its existence.  Hence, how can one engage in a meaningful debate if both sides are applying different definitions to key terms that are at the heart of the debate?

Rather than a debate, would an open dialog between atheists and theists (assuming they wanted to participate) be helpful in clarifying misunderstandings and enabling both sides to learn more about the other?

Debate, dialog, I consider them the same thing.  Having a discussion about the relative merits of a position and expecting them to be backed up and handled rationally and logically. Unfortunately, theists are simply not interested in finding out what is actually true, they only want to rationalize their way to what makes them feel good.  They try to put a spin on reality because what reality actually is doesn't comfort their precious little fee fees.

But that's really the problem because rational people and religious people have diametrically opposed goals at heart.  They don't want to learn what's actually so.  They want to push their religious agenda on the world, facts be damned.  It doesn't matter how many times you point out that what they're doing is wrong, they want no part of it.  It's emotion, not intellect, that drives them.  That's why all debates or discussions or open dialogs between theists and intelligent people go awry.

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(April 10, 2017 at 2:58 pm)SteveII Wrote: Why, do you have an argument that hasn't been addressed a thousand times before?

Nope, just the same ones theists have entirely failed to address a thousand times before.

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(April 10, 2017 at 3:35 pm)Cyberman Wrote: Why not right here? I can't guarantee the quality of the theist, but at least there are some.

Just because there are theists doesn't mean there are worthwhile theists, which is what I'm looking for.  Then again, if they were worthwhile, they wouldn't be theists, would they?

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(April 10, 2017 at 4:18 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

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Seriously you might try debating with Catholic_Lady over the propriety of toilet humor on the internet.

She might be a nice person, but that doesn't mean I think she has a rational clue when it comes to religion.

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(April 10, 2017 at 5:35 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: Debate them on your doorstep when they knock, with a brick.

They don't come to my door anymore.  I'm on their black lists.  I know more about their religions than they do.

How do you get blacklisted?

I've tried so many different things and even have a sign on my door, but they occasionally still knock.

They're nearly as bad as Sky TV continually phoning up and asking if I want to join.

(April 10, 2017 at 5:52 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: How do you get blacklisted?

I've tried so many different things and even have a sign on my door, but they occasionally still knock.

They're nearly as bad as Sky TV continually phoning up and asking if I want to join.

You invite them in and then you talk to them.  You just have to know more about what they are saying than they do.  Then they'll go back to their churches and tell them what you said and you'll end up on their black list quick.  The last thing these people want is their young people getting deconverted.  At my old house, I didn't get a single knock for more than 15 years.  Now that I've moved, I'm still training the local door-knockers, but most of them just stick a flyer in my door and run away.  They don't want to talk to me.

Quote: I have yet to find anywhere that has intelligent theists,

There's a reason for that.

In yo butt!

(April 10, 2017 at 7:41 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: In yo butt!

Okay, now it's on!  We got a badass theist in the house right here.  Tell it sister.

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(April 10, 2017 at 7:07 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote: I have yet to find anywhere that has intelligent theists,

There a reason for that.

(April 10, 2017 at 7:41 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: In yo butt!

Bet he never thought to look in there.

(April 10, 2017 at 7:41 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: In yo butt!