(April 8, 2017 at 8:26 pm)It_Was_me Wrote: The New Age stuff does a fairly good job at attracting followers. New Age are things like Mega Churches or Scientology.

Not many people take me seriously, but I am being dead serious that nobody should be shocked one bit, if in the future we see things like Star Trek, Star Wars or Harry Potter get turned into religions. All it would take is a nut who turns a mere fiction fan club to convince just enough people the writers were right and the characters were prophets.

You already have attempts of that with Jediism. This is how religion starts, it takes old myths and legends and takes claims of bullshit utopias and fantastic claims and sells them as a moral guide. Never underestimate our species ability to be delusional, or cons or both.

(April 8, 2017 at 6:07 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: ^there is no pointing in telling everyone there are false religions. Everyone understands that even as children.

And yet every theist insists theirs is the only true religion. How can anyone know one from the other, or that there even is a true religion (let alone that there must be one)?

(April 8, 2017 at 6:07 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: If there is another point to be made that isn't obvious, then make it. This does nothing to help the case of Atheists.

That's because atheists have no case to make. It's the burden of theists to make their case, to which atheism is the response. You're tilting at windmills. C'mon MK, you know this stuff.

(April 11, 2017 at 9:41 am)Cyberman Wrote:

(April 8, 2017 at 6:07 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: ^there is no pointing in telling everyone there are false religions. Everyone understands that even as children.

And yet every theist insists theirs is the only true religion. How can anyone know one from the other, or that there even is a true religion (let alone that there must be one)?

This is a good question. A real key one. One that not enough Theists ask themselves. I can assure you I have thought and reflected on this issue. I also believe I have clear proofs regarding my creed. 

The problem is over here if I begin to prove why my specific creed is best, people will just say, you haven't proven God yet. I can answer this question, but the thread cannot be all be replied to by "prove God or we don't care what you can prove with assuming God exists as a given premise".

Quote:That's because atheists have no case to make. It's the burden of theists to make their case, to which atheism is the response. You're tilting at windmills. C'mon MK, you know this stuff.

Atheists are claiming they are not blameworthy or at fault for not believing in God and knowing he exists. Most Theists don't buy that. They believe you ought to know.

On this site I've seen many (not all but many) Atheists deny:

1. Perpetual identity (we are the same person despite how much we have grown and changed, as we were when born to now).
2. Objective goodness.
3. Inherent Value to beings.
4. Our actions forming a part of us in the true measure.
5. Morality not having the possibility of being arbitrary.
6. Justice as in the definition of everything being given it's due and it's potential existing.
7. There is an object value measurement to who we are.

Doubt is not a bad tool if helps you seek proofs and reason.

I'm not convinced Atheists haven't taken doubt too far and not used it correctly.

You in forgetting what you are linked to, have not only forgotten the source where you origin from and is closest to you than anything else, but by doing so have forgotten who you are.

And that is the essential to ask. I've seen Atheists here tell me they believe they have an objective reality to say they believe the self is an illusion and is not an objective reality.

I've seen people praise old Philosopher arguments of why morality or justice or value cannot be created, but then go on to talk about how it's all subjective.

There is no consistency with anyone here. It's flopping to which side is suited whenever it calls.

Calm the storm of doubt, and see what you know for certain.  

I know I am doing a bad job, I wish I was more clear and coherent. I am trying to learn to make things more clear.

I think I am gaining common ground in understanding in the value and its signs thread, we'll see where it leads!

(April 11, 2017 at 10:19 am)MysticKnight Wrote:

(April 11, 2017 at 9:41 am)Cyberman Wrote: And yet every theist insists theirs is the only true religion. How can anyone know one from the other, or that there even is a true religion (let alone that there must be one)?

This is a good question. A real key one. One that not enough Theists ask themselves. I can assure you I have thought and reflected on this issue. I also believe I have clear proofs regarding my creed. 

The problem is over here if I begin to prove why my specific creed is best, people will just say, you haven't proven God yet. I can answer this question, but the thread cannot be all be replied to by "prove God or we don't care what you can prove with assuming God exists as a given premise".

You have no proof.  We know that.  You probably know that.  So the response, "prove god or we don't care what you can prove with assuming god exists as a premise" is appropriate.

Be sure to have your disciples write down your miracles promptly. Writing them down promptly means they're true. Christians who believe Jesus is the most evidenced holy miracle worker because his miracles were recorded within decades of their supposed occurrence will have to convert to your movement when your miracles are recorded within hours, if they value consistency at all (there's always a few who do).

(April 11, 2017 at 10:41 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: Be sure to have your disciples write down your miracles promptly. Writing them down promptly means they're true. Christians who believe Jesus is the most evidenced holy miracle worker because his miracles were recorded within decades of their supposed occurrence will have to convert to your movement when your miracles are recorded within hours, if they value consistency at all (there's always a few who do).

Miracles are always seen to be if a Prophet doesn't have them reported about him, he definitely is false.

I have never seen Theists say because they are reported they are true. They argue to show miracles have been reported just to show that by that standard (ie. no reports of miracles), their Prophet has not been proven false.

Let's begin to honestly assess where we all are coming from rather than strawman arguments.

Yes, I've noticed you don't get into conversations with SteveII for some reason. Maybe you should start reading his posts to alleviate your ignorance of what other theists say.

(April 11, 2017 at 10:43 am)MysticKnight Wrote:

(April 11, 2017 at 10:41 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: Be sure to have your disciples write down your miracles promptly. Writing them down promptly means they're true. Christians who believe Jesus is the most evidenced holy miracle worker because his miracles were recorded within decades of their supposed occurrence will have to convert to your movement when your miracles are recorded within hours, if they value consistency at all (there's always a few who do).

Miracles are always seen to be if a Prophet doesn't have them reported about him, he definitely is false.

I have never seen Theists say because they are reported they are true. They argue to show miracles have been reported just to show that by that standard (ie. no reports of miracles), their Prophet has not been proven false.

Let's begin to honestly assess where we all are coming from rather than strawman arguments.

"Miracle" is a word used worldwide. Islam does not own the patent on that word. We don't buy use of that word when anyone uses it.

It is still a word used from a position of ignorance based on gap filing, selection bias and sample rate error.

If a jet passenger jet crashes and nobody survives the word does not get used.

If a passenger jet crashes and 299 people survive and 1 person dies, the word "miracle" is used.

If another passenger jet crashes and 1 person survives and 299 die, the word "miracle" is still used.

When does it cease to be a miracle, when half die and half dont?

50 to 60 million humans DIE worldwide per year on average from EVERYTHING. Mostly old age, but also in the womb, or stillborn. Children die from disease and famine, and as we saw this week in Syria, even war. But people in India die from heart attacks, natural disasters. Humans in America die from tornados and earthquakes and floods. My mom died from an infection. Stories of murder in the news every day in every major city and even where I live in the sticks. 

The average amount of deaths in 10 years worldwide is half a billion, and 1 billion deaths worldwide every 20 years.

"If you find Allah that will fix it"
"If you find Jesus that will fix it"
"If you find Yahweh that will fix it"
"If you follow Buddha that will fix it". 
"If you follow the Hindu gods that will fix it".

Nope, no such thing as a "miracle". If you survive a jet crash it was because of your position in the airplane, pilot skill and angle of impact, mechanical conditions and weather conditions. If you die, it would also be for the same reason.

My mom died, because she was old, not because she believed or didn't believe. She died because when humans get old their immune systems don't work as well as when you are younger. If I get hit by a car crossing the street tomorrow nobody will be smoting me or smiting me from the divine world. I it will merely mean either the driver wasn't paying attention or I wasn't or both.

(April 11, 2017 at 10:19 am)MysticKnight Wrote:

(April 11, 2017 at 9:41 am)Cyberman Wrote: And yet every theist insists theirs is the only true religion. How can anyone know one from the other, or that there even is a true religion (let alone that there must be one)?

This is a good question. A real key one. One that not enough Theists ask themselves. I can assure you I have thought and reflected on this issue. I also believe I have clear proofs regarding my creed. 

The problem is over here if I begin to prove why my specific creed is best, people will just say, you haven't proven God yet. I can answer this question, but the thread cannot be all be replied to by "prove God or we don't care what you can prove with assuming God exists as a given premise".

Then you need better evidence. Evidence that better stands up to basic scrutiny and matches reality.

(April 11, 2017 at 10:19 am)MysticKnight Wrote: Atheists are claiming they are not blameworthy or at fault for not believing in God

That's not a claim; that's basic burden of proof.

(April 11, 2017 at 10:19 am)MysticKnight Wrote: and knowing he exists.

I don't know "he" exists. Neither do you. How can I say that? Because you would be able to demonstrate that knowledge without resorting to logical and linguistic acrobatics and red herring tantrums.

(April 11, 2017 at 10:19 am)MysticKnight Wrote: Most Theists don't buy that. They believe you ought to know.

Not my problem.

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Incidentally, what's with all the weird font size tags polluting my words? I had to edit all that shit out.