(May 10, 2017 at 4:39 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(May 10, 2017 at 3:42 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: But Chad, if a person genuinely just doesn't think God is real, how can that be held against them to such a degree that warrants going straight to Hell after they die? Don't you think God gives these people a chance? 

First, let me say that I think the scriptures are indeterminate between eternal conscious torment and annihilation. Second, let me say that I personally do not like either option. I would much prefer universalism but that is not what the scriptures teach. There isn't anyone alive that does not have some apprehension of the divine that they could either cultivate or reject.

• "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened" - Romans 1:18-21:
  

Likewise, the notion of a righteous atheist is a red herring. Scripture is very clear about who deserves salvation: no one.

• "Enter not into judgment with your servant, for no one living is righteous before you." -Psalm 143:2
  
  "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we say we have not sinned, we make [God] a liar, and his word is not in us. -1 John 1:8,10
  
  "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way" -Isaiah 53:6
  

Similarly, scripture is clear that we do not attain salvation by our own efforts:

• "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit" -Titus 3:5).
  
  “No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." -John 6:44
  

As you know, I do not often resort to proof-texting however since you are a Christian and presumably accept the authority of God's Word, I felt it would be profitable to do so.

Guess God just has to abide by what those scribes scribbled.  Pfft, screw god.  It's all about the book.  Boring.

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(May 10, 2017 at 7:06 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: The idea that my eternal worth hinges upon whether I accept or reject the existence of God is one of the more immoral doctrines thought up by any religion.

It isn't so bad if you don't go literal.  We know a personal afterlife makes no sense.  So better to interpret "heaven" as a current state and "God" is just the internal other, the totality of self which consciously we can only ever be part.  So it wouldn't really be about anyone's eternal worth.  Rather, one just can't have that sort of bliss and remain in a partial state in rebellion against the something more within.  Then again, nothing really rides on it.  If hell is simply the status quo it isn't exactly a lake of fire.

(May 10, 2017 at 11:31 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(May 10, 2017 at 4:39 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: First, let me say that I think the scriptures are indeterminate between eternal conscious torment and annihilation. Second, let me say that I personally do not like either option. I would much prefer universalism but that is not what the scriptures teach. There isn't anyone alive that does not have some apprehension of the divine that they could either cultivate or reject.

• "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened" - Romans 1:18-21:
  

Likewise, the notion of a righteous atheist is a red herring. Scripture is very clear about who deserves salvation: no one.

• "Enter not into judgment with your servant, for no one living is righteous before you." -Psalm 143:2
  
  "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we say we have not sinned, we make [God] a liar, and his word is not in us. -1 John 1:8,10
  
  "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way" -Isaiah 53:6
  

Similarly, scripture is clear that we do not attain salvation by our own efforts:

• "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit" -Titus 3:5).
  
  “No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." -John 6:44
  

As you know, I do not often resort to proof-texting however since you are a Christian and presumably accept the authority of God's Word, I felt it would be profitable to do so.

Guess God just has to abide by what those scribes scribbled.  Pfft, screw god.  It's all about the book.  Boring.

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(May 10, 2017 at 7:06 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: The idea that my eternal worth hinges upon whether I accept or reject the existence of God is one of the more immoral doctrines thought up by any religion.

It isn't so bad if you don't go literal.  We know a personal afterlife makes no sense.  So better to interpret "heaven" as a current state and "God" is just the internal other, the totality of self which consciously we can only ever be part.  So it wouldn't really be about anyone's eternal worth.  Rather, one just can't have that sort of bliss and remain in a partial state in rebellion against the something more within.  Then again, nothing really rides on it.  If hell is simply the status quo it isn't exactly a lake of fire.

It does make me laugh that someone could save hundreds of thousands of lives, be the best person they possibly can, go out of their way to help people, children, small furry animals, and then be sent to hell because he happens to belong to the wrong religious denomination.

What a petty being this god character must be.

But what are you gonna do? They have this contract with the ancient scribes. They feel the need to press their case and, so long everyone abides by the same rules I'm sure they have a blast doing it. (Wankers.)

(May 10, 2017 at 11:59 pm)Whateverist Wrote: But what are you gonna do?  They have this contract with the ancient scribes.  They feel the need to press their case and, so long everyone abides by the same rules I'm sure they have a blast doing it.  (Wankers.)

On the bright side I'm quite glad I don't qualify for the ego sanctuary of their petty dictator.

I like it tropical, anyway.

And who wants to be surrounded by fairies playing harps, fawning sycophants, and rainbow farting gay horses with dildos on their heads, anyway?

(May 11, 2017 at 12:04 am)The Valkyrie Wrote: And who wants to be surrounded by fairies playing harps, fawning sycophants, and rainbow farting gay horses with dildos on their heads, anyway?

The correct answer is © God.

(May 11, 2017 at 12:05 am)Whateverist Wrote:

(May 11, 2017 at 12:04 am)The Valkyrie Wrote: And who wants to be surrounded by fairies playing harps, fawning sycophants, and rainbow farting gay horses with dildos on their heads, anyway?

The correct answer is © God.

And Jebus.

(May 11, 2017 at 12:07 am)The Valkyrie Wrote:

(May 11, 2017 at 12:05 am)Whateverist Wrote: The correct answer is © God.

And Jebus.

Yeah.  Imagine God, Jeebus and maybe Allah too up in heaven counting their stacks of human praises.  I wonder if they covet each others stacks or brag to each other when theirs is higher.  It would be so easy to increase their happiness by sending up a hosanna or two, but at the same time so pointless.  These gods were obviously conceived by the worst of us.

AtlasS33 Wrote:It's not yet complete.

This life is not supposed to be a place where God appears; it's a mere test. You won't see the answer; but you can study the materials you have to reach it.
A fighting ground between us and ourselves and Satan. Who would we choose?

It's finding what is best for us. God is the best option.

How do you know that?

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AtlasS33 Wrote:It would be a game if the sun didn't rise and the moon hid behind a black hole.
The universe is screaming with the existence of a grand design.

The sun doesn't rise, the earth rotates, and there are tide-locked planets that don't have sunrises. Planets orbiting a sun only have two options: to rotate relative to their sun or be tide-locked. The sun seeming to come up in the morning is pretty, and we'd all die if that didn't happen, but it's what happens on most orbiting planets, with no one to see it.

If there were a civilization-bearing planet similar to ours and a moon similar to ours, and there was a black hole between it and its moon; that would scream design to me, because I'm pretty sure that's not something that can naturally occur as a stable situation.

(May 10, 2017 at 10:35 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: I think humans have created the best antithesis to reality.

Yep. It's called religion.

Someone who can't find scriptural support for universalism isn't really looking for it.

"In thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed". (Gen. 12:3) "In thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed". (Gen. 22:18)

"I will perform the oath which I swore unto Abraham thy father, and I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed." (Gen. 24:3-4)

"As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked". (Ezek. 33:11)

"Ask of me, and I will give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession." (Psalms 2:8)

"The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand." (John 3:35)

"Thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." (John 17:2)

"All that the Father giveth me, shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." (John 6:37)

"Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, and in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first, God, having raised up his son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities." (Acts 3:25-26)

"Who will have all men to be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim. 2:4)