(May 12, 2017 at 12:54 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(May 12, 2017 at 12:30 pm)Grandizer Wrote: The exchanges happening here between the Christian members. My god, isn't it more parsimonious to actually view Christian theism as entirely man-made, instead of trying to make sense out of what the Bible says on the unwarranted assumption it's divinely inspired? The Bible is a book of contradictions, and a source of confusion for many, including Christians.

The bible doesn't go into detail about what the afterlife will be like and how people will be judged in all the different scenarios possible. On those things, we may speculate, disagree, and have our personal opinions. I don't see why that's such a big deal. The important thing, and what actually matters, is that we all agree we can only be 100% responsible for our own souls, and we trust in God's judgement for the rest.

It may not be a big deal for you, but when I see you guys attempting to make sense out of what is clearly a source of confusion due to its several ambiguous passages and doctrinal contradictions, it makes me just want to exclaim that it makes much more sense that the whole thing is man-made. It's one thing to try to interpret what a passage in the Bible says (which is good scholarly practice), it's a whole other thing to assume the Bible is internally coherent and to speculate on what the Bible overall says about this or that (usually based on disjointed passages from different books in the Bible).

(May 12, 2017 at 12:47 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(May 12, 2017 at 12:41 pm)Aroura Wrote: You both speak as if belief is a choice, and not a consequence.

An analogy might help. You choose to enter a movie theater; seeing the movie is the consequence of that choice. Similarly, contrition and repentance open you up to receive the Holy Spirit by means of the gospel.

Riiight.  So all these stories of people being atheists of non-believers, and, while doing everyday things, are "struck by the holy spirit" are just lies?  And all those people who prayed and prayed and wanted to be "filled with the spirit" and got nothing? They were doing it wrong?  Such ridiculous crap.

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(May 12, 2017 at 12:54 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(May 12, 2017 at 12:30 pm)Grandizer Wrote: The exchanges happening here between the Christian members. My god, isn't it more parsimonious to actually view Christian theism as entirely man-made, instead of trying to make sense out of what the Bible says on the unwarranted assumption it's divinely inspired? The Bible is a book of contradictions, and a source of confusion for many, including Christians.

The bible doesn't go into detail about what the afterlife will be like and how people will be judged in all the different scenarios possible. On those things, we may speculate, disagree, and have our personal opinions. I don't see why that's such a big deal. The important thing, and what actually matters, is that we all agree we can only be 100% responsible for our own souls, and we trust in God's judgement for the rest.

Yeah, the important thing is to agree to at least PART of the story, so it doesn't look like everyone has their own version of god and his plan and most are contradictory.

(May 12, 2017 at 12:41 pm)Aroura Wrote: What does "take full advantage of living as an unbeliever" even mean?  

Put it into context, Aroura. Firstly, it was theoretical as I was trying to see things through Neo's perspective. Also, I've said multiple times, that I think most atheists aren't atheist by choice. Most don't believe because they genuinely don't think it's true, and that's it. That's what I think, and I've made that clear on multiple occasions. I do think there probably are some people out there who don't believe simply because they don't really wanna be bothered with the guilt or responsibility or whatever that comes with it, and my theoretical scenario was in reference to them, if anything. Maybe they would otherwise feel guilty about doing things like sleeping around, using recreational drugs, partying heavily, etc etc, but feel no guilt so long as there isn't a higher power telling them not to. Again, I think people like that don't represent the majority of unbelievers, but I'm saying there could theoretically be people like that, and I can see why Neo would be concerned about pushing people like that further into it. If you are not like that, which I doubt you are, then don't be offended... it didn't apply to you.       

I'm sorry but you've written totally condensing posts, speaking as though theists are stupid and childish, and saying you're disgusted by people who teach faith to their kids (which is my mom and dad and hopefully me one day if I'm lucky enough to have a child).... yet get so offended so quickly at things we write. You're allowed to have those opinions. I just think it's inconsistent that you can dish it but not take any yourself.

(May 12, 2017 at 12:24 pm)Lutrinae Wrote:

(May 12, 2017 at 12:19 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: That's right, no one knows what is in another's heart.

Of course we do.  A simple biology course will inform anyone of precisely what a heart is made.

^^^ This is an example of the equivocation fallacy ^^^

(May 12, 2017 at 1:30 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote:

(May 12, 2017 at 12:24 pm)Lutrinae Wrote: Of course we do.  A simple biology course will inform anyone of precisely what a heart is made.

^^^ This is an example of the equivocation fallacy ^^^

Eh, I think it's more of a lame jab at a theist by intentionally misinterpreting a statement.

It's still an example of the equivocation fallacy.

It was obvious that a figurative poetic definition of "heart" was being used and he equivocated it to a literal biological definition of the word "heart".

(May 12, 2017 at 12:47 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: [quote='Aroura' pid='1551714' dateline='1494607263']
You both speak as if belief is a choice, and not a consequence.

(May 12, 2017 at 12:47 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: An analogy might help. You choose to enter a movie theater; seeing the movie is the consequence of that choice.

I didn't choose not to believe. I find it silly.

(May 12, 2017 at 12:47 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Similarly, contrition and repentance open you up to receive the Holy Spirit by means of the gospel.

But those suggest that you need to open yourself up to god, which implies that you already lean that way. I don't.

Let me give you an analogy.

You find yourself in a club where there are lots of men in backless chaps, but you are either aroused by them or your aren't.

You have to be "that way" inclined.

(May 12, 2017 at 1:35 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: It's still an example of the equivocation fallacy.

It was obvious that a figurative poetic definition of "heart" was being used and he equivocated it to a literal biological definition of the word "heart".

Well yeah that's what I mean, I think it was an intentional jab, not really a genuine error.  Still not great.

(May 12, 2017 at 12:47 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: An analogy might help. You choose to enter a movie theater; seeing the movie is the consequence of that choice. Similarly, contrition and repentance open you up to receive the Holy Spirit by means of the gospel.

What a useless analogy. One is a voluntary action and the other is an involuntary mental conviction.

(May 12, 2017 at 1:03 pm)Harry Nevis Wrote:

(May 12, 2017 at 12:47 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: An analogy might help. You choose to enter a movie theater; seeing the movie is the consequence of that choice. Similarly, contrition and repentance open you up to receive the Holy Spirit by means of the gospel.

Riiight.  So all these stories of people being atheists of non-believers, and, while doing everyday things, are "struck by the holy spirit" are just lies?  And all those people who prayed and prayed and wanted to be "filled with the spirit" and got nothing? They were doing it wrong?  Such ridiculous crap.

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(May 12, 2017 at 12:54 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: The bible doesn't go into detail about what the afterlife will be like and how people will be judged in all the different scenarios possible. On those things, we may speculate, disagree, and have our personal opinions. I don't see why that's such a big deal. The important thing, and what actually matters, is that we all agree we can only be 100% responsible for our own souls, and we trust in God's judgement for the rest.

Yeah, the important thing is to agree to at least PART of the story, so it doesn't look like everyone has their own version of god and his plan and most are contradictory.

It's always amazing how much religion sounds like getting someone into drugs you have to be "open" to the magic drugs and if you not then boo on you. Glad physics does not work that way . "Sorry tammy you were not open to be filled by the holy gravity wave that's why your floating off to the icy void of space.

Religion if you accept it they win . If you reject it it's your fault and they still win.