(May 19, 2017 at 2:56 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(May 19, 2017 at 11:15 am)Grandizer Wrote: Sean Carroll is one scientist who does not believe the universe is necessarily fine-tuned for life.

Some scientists that defend the reality of fine-tuning:

Barrow, Carr, Carter, Davies, Dawkins, Deutsch, Ellis, Greene, Guth, Harrison, Hawking, Linde, Page, Penrose, Polkinghorne, Rees, Sandage, Smolin, Susskind, Tegmark, Tipler, Vilenkin, Weinberg, Wheeler, and Wilczek.

I'm skeptical that all of them believe the unvierse is fine-tuned for life. But suppose this is so, doesn't matter. My response was directed to you claiming that it is a fact not in question that the unverse is fine-tuned for life, and that no serious scientist would think differently about this (e.g., necessary universe/multiverse, etc.). Brought up Sean Carroll as an example of a serious scientist who believes in many-worlds interpretation and says that it's not necessarily the case that the universe is fine-tuned for life (it's possible that the parameters could be adjusted somewhat and still allow for life of some sort). I'm sure there are a few more scientists who agree, but like I said, doesn't matter. At the end of the day, it's not the opinions/speculations of scientists that we should accept as gospel truth. It's what they discover and/or derive through the scientific method that we should seriously consider.

(May 19, 2017 at 11:49 am)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(May 15, 2017 at 11:19 am)SteveII Wrote: Evidence and reasons to believe in God:

1. Person of Jesus is compelling.

No he isn't.

Quote:2. The NT describes actual events including the miracles, life, death and resurrection of Jesus.

No it doesn't.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
vorlon comments:

Being crucified twice on consecutive days is pretty gosh darn compelling, ain't it ??  

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:3. God works in people's lives today--changing people on the inside as well as the occurrence of miracles.

No it doesn't.

Quote:4. The natural theology arguments:

Fail when they encounter facts.

Quote:a. God is the best explanation why anything at all exists.

God is probably the worst possible explanation for "why things exist at all".
It supposes that an intelligent agency that consists of nothing at all and in with no time to exist in managed through means not gone into create everything including space and time and hates the gays.

Quote:b. God is the best explanation of the origin of the universe.

Nope.

Quote:c. God is the best explanation of the fine-tuning of the universe for intelligent life.

Nope.

Quote:d. God is the best explanation of intentional states of consciousness.

Nope.

Quote:e. God is the best explanation of objective moral values and duties.

Nope.

(May 19, 2017 at 3:03 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Balls in your court now, Grandizer. Who will win 'who's got the most scientists agreeing with them?'?

I guess I'll keep the balls in my court.

(May 19, 2017 at 3:26 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: I'm just disappointed in not having being born in a universe of craft beer volcanoes. I'm growing tired of this crapsack world.

are you part of the church of the flying spaghetti monster? beer volcanoes are your reward in the after life.

If the word "nothing" in "God created the universe from nothing" literally means the absence of ANYthing, then it can be rephrased as "God did not create the universe from anything" which means either the universe always existed or it was created by something other than God. Neither is keeping with what most religious believe when they read that biblical passage, so the faithful may need to re-examine the meaning of the concept.

I am guessing but I think it was Feynman who said that discovering there is fine tuning in the universe is like discovering that the men's section in the department store sells jackets and ties.

(May 20, 2017 at 4:17 am)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(May 19, 2017 at 3:26 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: I'm just disappointed in not having being born in a universe of craft beer volcanoes. I'm growing tired of this crapsack world.

are you part of the church of the flying spaghetti monster? beer volcanoes are your reward in the after life.

The advantage of theism is they spew craft beer...hopefully a nice lambic ale.

(May 21, 2017 at 8:34 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(May 20, 2017 at 4:17 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: are you part of the church of the flying spaghetti monster? beer volcanoes are your reward in the after life.

The advantage of theism is they spew craft beer...hopefully a nice lambic ale.

Granted some of the best! That is what sexual frustration can do. However, god is not necessary for a good brew. Recently I sampled a good IPA. Snake Dog. Today, the old standard Guinness Stout. Explained easily without a deity!

I will have to try Snake Dog although I'm getting a bit maxed out on IPA's. My favorite right now is "A little Crazy" by Revolution Brewing.