(May 28, 2017 at 12:53 pm)Moros Synackaon Wrote: Everyone has a big turd fly out of their mouth periodically, its just a matter of what kind and how they recover it (if ever).

I'll let many things pass if one walks back later and disowns it fully. I know what it's like to be an angry ape in a rather tone deaf universe. I also note when others embrace shit easily.

That's why forgiving Nazis is a no-go, but ex-Nazis, maybe. It's a matter of context and face.

I remember lionizing PZ Myers and the other New Atheists. He became increasingly toxic and mean - a bully. Bullies don't stand up for others, they only think of themselves. So I walked away from my youthful adulation to find my own path.

I disagree with SteelCurtain on this topic. No one is entitled to your trust or belief. Not even the Great Sam Harris. Nor is it a personal identifiable failure to discover you don't like it when a metaphorical turd flies out of their mouths. I have not observed you advocate for penalizing Sam Harris - deciding you really don't like someone is not a punishment.

Just remember that there are varying degrees of faith, bigotry that have varying degrees of time and stickiness. Which means sometimes it's salvageable, sometimes not and sometimes it doesn't matter. Life has many opportunities for improvement.

I think we actually agree on most everything. I don't think Hammy has a responsibility to keep being a fan of Sam Harris or anything. My comment is that this whole thing is, to me, an overreaction to what actually happened. I don't think Harris was endorsing Murray's comments, I think he was using the whole situation to highlight letting other opinions out there. Him shutting Murray down would be exactly the response he (Harris) is against. People make jokes about Caitlyn Jenner all the time. Some of them are funny, some of them aren't, some are borderline. Some of them come from the gay community, who have traditionally been tribal within the subsects of the queer community at large.

My only bug is the ease with which people are willing to write someone off completely if they don't fall in line like they want. I vehemently oppose Murray's comments, but they seem more like a sassy gay dude being an asshole to his own tribe (the LGBTQ community) and making jokes than they do someone being intentionally harmful or bigoted towards the trans community. Even if Harris agrees with Murray, which I haven't seen any evidence of, personally I disagree with the overblown response here.

I liken it to a personal thing for me, Bill Maher. Bill Maher had Milo Yiannopoulos on. The guy said some terrible shit about trans people, and said it in a pithy, sassy way, and Bill Maher laughed. Bill Maher also is borderline anti-vaxx and has an obsession with Monsanto that is borderline harmful. He just did a big thing about the harm in trying to go to Mars that I vehemently disagree with. But I am still a fan because 90% of the shit he says, I believe is either helpful, funny, or both. I am not saying it is wrong for Hammy to not be a fan of Sam Harris anymore. You do you. I am saying it, to me, is indicative of the ideological purity problem that plagues liberals and progressives. I really do think that this issue is going to be the thing that allows more Donald Trumps to happen, and I believe it to be extremely harmful.

I'd say that the people who vote for Donald Trumps are what's allowing Donald Trumps to happen. Blaming the left is ridiculous. You may as well say that the west is responsible for Islamic terrorism for angering the Islamists.

I don't easily write people off as bigots. I call people bigots when they say bigoted things or seem to condone other people saying bigoted things. I.e. I call people bigots when they behave bigotedly. And I have no desire to associate myself with bigots. No hatred or "punishment" required. Far from it.

I am simply honest about what I see. Calling a spade a spade rather than lying from omission or sugarcoating things is exactly what intellectual honesty is all about.

Sam Harris is all about calling a spade a spade. And I'll be damned if I'm not going to apply the same to him when in this case he is at best gives the appearance of condoning bigoted expressions. Which in itself is being complict and harmful. You don't sit there and laugh and say something is hilarious in situations like that.

Imagine someone coming on his show calling gay people faggots or black people N words and him just sitting there laughing and saying it's hilarious and then go on to continue politely agreeing with the person, completely complicit in all those bigoted expressions. For me to not call out such a response as obviously bigoted would just be intellectually dishonest of me.

If someone came on his show saying that that would be exactly as bad as what Murray said about transgender people. Hence my reaction.

I'd say if anything I undereacted. If I was transgender myself I think I'd take, understandably, even more offence and it would be justifiable too. Ask yourself this "Would it be an overreaction on Hammy's part if Murray had started calling black people N-words and gay people faggots and Sam Harris had sat there laughing and saying it was hilarious and then going on to politely agreeing as if that was all acceptable?". Underreaction, I think. I think a lot of people would get more upset than I am. But not everyone compares bigotry against transgenders to bigotry against other groups... but they should. And in fact there seems to be much more bigotry against transgenders than any other group in the LGBT community. Many people who accept homosexuals and lesbians are still bigoted against bisexuals and say stupid shit like they're "greedy", and an even greater number of people are perfectly accepting towards gays, lesbians and bisexuals but are still bigoted against transgender people.

I absolutely did not overreact to such vile bigotry and such vile condoning of vile bigotry. Opinions like this being brushed off as not a big deal and taking offence against it being brushed off as an overreaction is harmful to the transgender community. It needs to be taken more seriously, not less.

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols.

Yeah, I went there...heh heh.
Sue me.

In absence of the attached religious woo, it's pretty good goddamned advice.

I don't mean to be such a fanboy

But I'm not anymore. Not with regards to.... him!

(May 28, 2017 at 5:16 pm)Hammy Wrote: I'd say that the people who vote for Donald Trumps are what's allowing Donald Trumps to happen. Blaming the left is ridiculous. You may as well say that the west is responsible for Islamic terrorism for angering the Islamists.

No, the people who vote for Donald Trump are what makes the election of Donald Trump possible. The people who outnumber those people who voted for Donald Trump by a pretty solid margin, yet protested by voting for candidates who actually were worse representatives of the issues they cared about because the other viable candidate was flawed allowed that smaller number of Trump voters to win in more areas. It will happen again if the left doesn't learn to accept flawed candidates, because in this world of hyperpartisan politics, the two major candidates are going to be made out to be evil, damaged, etc no matter who they are. But the right will still vote for their man. (let's face it--it will be a man) The left will fracture itself and lose more elections because the candidate is an evil warmongerer who once voted for a war or once supported a trade deal or once voted against a bill that would have helped their pet cause, or their preferred candidate got primaried by the eventual nominee and they carry all of the vitriol from primary season into the general election. This is a problem unique to the left. It is infantile to refuse to see how much it affects elections.

(May 28, 2017 at 5:16 pm)Hammy Wrote: Imagine someone coming on his show calling gay people faggots or black people N words and him just sitting there laughing and saying it's hilarious and then go on to continue politely agreeing with the person, completely complicit in all those bigoted expressions. For me to not call out such a response as obviously bigoted would just be intellectually dishonest of me.

If someone came on his show saying that that would be exactly as bad as what Murray said about transgender people. Hence my reaction.

I'd say if anything I undereacted. If I was transgender myself I think I'd take, understandably, even more offence and it would be justifiable too. Ask yourself this "Would it be an overreaction on Hammy's part if Murray had started calling black people N-words and gay people faggots and Sam Harris had sat there laughing and saying it was hilarious and then going on to politely agreeing as if that was all acceptable?". Underreaction, I think. I think a lot of people would get more upset than I am. But not everyone compares bigotry against transgenders to bigotry against other groups... but they should. And in fact there seems to be much more bigotry against transgenders than any other group in the LGBT community. Many people who accept homosexuals and lesbians are still bigoted against bisexuals and say stupid shit like they're "greedy", and an even greater number of people are perfectly accepting towards gays, lesbians and bisexuals but are still bigoted against transgender people.

I absolutely did not overreact to such vile bigotry and such vile condoning of vile bigotry. Opinions like this being brushed off as not a big deal and taking offence against it being brushed off as an overreaction is harmful to the transgender community. It needs to be taken more seriously, not less.

I don't think it does. I think this equivocation between denigrating slurs and crass generalizing is where we differ. I don't think there were any slurs thrown, I just think Murray and maybe Harris are ignorant of (maybe wilfully) the complexities of gender. I think, again, that as a gay man, Murray capitalizes on something I hear a lot among gay friends of mine---crass "shade" thrown at other members of the LGBTQ community. It is as if as soon as a person comes out as trans, questioning their choices and lifestyle is off limits. Caitlyn Jenner is a pretty shit human being. Most trans people I have talked to (small sample, I know) say worse things about her. I think you are overreacting here. But I'll let you to it.

To be quite honest, the thing that needs to be taken more seriously is having conversations with people to educate them about gender if they aren't aware. Calling them bigots and writing them off does nothing to change the situation or raise people's consciousness. Social change isn't immediate. Every other group fights for years or decades to gain social standing, and while I'd love it if there was a shortcut; it doesn't seem like there is one. It takes time and exposure. But if we can learn anything from the countless studies coming out about confirmation bias and the backfire effect, shouting people down is the one thing that can retard that progress.

It's one thing to let bigots explain themselves and expose their beliefs for discussion. It is another thing entirely to egg it on by showing disingenuous approval. From what you and Ham have stated, a most charitable read would be that - he egged it on by presenting a disingenuous approving facade.

That's one thing that gets lost by the whole "we must listen" bullshit that I keep seeing put forth - you should ask why but it doesn't mean you should be jovially laughing about depriving people of their rights (I submit Maher's conduct with Yiannopolous falls more into that category - but then again Maher has a habit of making provacative statements for shits and giggles. I detest him.).

I don't think one should have much humor about that at all. Inquisitiveness, sure. Socratic questioning? Wonderful. Acting like what they're advocating is as mundane as planning a mail route? Jesus Christ.

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(May 28, 2017 at 1:39 pm)Khemikal Wrote: @Crunchy

I bet it feels like that to a bigot, but, it would...wouldn't it?



Personally, bigotry isn't a deal breaker for me, regarding friendship.  I'd have been a lonely, lonely person if it were.  My bigoted buddies know that I think they're a bigot, I've got lots of jokes.

By your own definitions you're the biggest bigot on this site, and (again by your line of reasoning) that makes you a racist as well. Don't try to deny it.

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Quote:Hammy Wrote:
It's not. It's his complicit laughter in the face of statements that transgender people are "weirdos" or men with penises, that makes him an ignorant bigot. 

It's beyond obvious that both him and Murray think this is acceptable. It's far from funny. It's indefensible.

This is the heart of where we disagree. "complicit laughter" is how you see it but that doesn't mean it's how it is. People laugh at all kinds of inappropriate humor without supporting the racism/sexism/pedophilia etc... implied in the joke. Even if you yourself don't like the joke or don't find it funny.

With Harris, there are way more than enough statements/books/ interviews of him in the past to show that he is a liberal in accepting all types of humans including gays into the family of humanity. So suddenly he's been outdated as transphobic because of a chuckle? IMO it just doesn't fit.
I am willing to reconsider any of this if anyone can show me some actual transphobic statements from Harris.

(May 29, 2017 at 1:02 am)Moros Synackaon Wrote: It's one thing to let bigots explain themselves and expose their beliefs for discussion. It is another thing entirely to egg it on by showing disingenuous approval. From what you and Ham have stated, a most charitable read would be that - he egged it on by presenting a disingenuous approving facade.

That's one thing that gets lost by the whole "we must listen" bullshit that I keep seeing put forth - you should ask why but it doesn't mean you should be jovially laughing about depriving people of their rights (I submit Maher's conduct with Yiannopolous falls more into that category - but then again Maher has a habit of making provacative statements for shits and giggles. I detest him.).

I don't think one should have much humor about that at all. Inquisitiveness, sure. Socratic questioning? Wonderful. Acting like what they're advocating is as mundane as planning a mail route? Jesus Christ.

That's the thing---nobody was joking about depriving anyone of any rights. Murray, again, a gay man---which is important because in my experience there are a lot of gay men that are harshly crass about gender issues---were making fun of Caitlyn Jenner and someone else for their decisions around transitioning or not. Whether it was a good thing that Caitlyn Jenner gets the cover of Vanity Fair as 'woman of the year' after being a woman for a couple of months---all while being indicted for vehicular manslaughter and publically being a shitty human on reality TV. The way he questions this is crass, but not once that I heard did Murray say she shouldn't be allowed to be herself. He questions the idea of 75 genders, he questions the idea of trans women competing in gender specific competitions. While I absolutely disagree with questioning or demeaning someone else's life decisions, I think there is a big difference between this and denying someone rights.

Gee, if only those Blacks could stop murdering each other with gang violence and broken families so they could get jobs. We'll need more police for those inner city districts to bring back Law and Order. Stop and Frisk was a good idea to get rid of those super predators - we should lock up even more criminals who keep getting off easy.

What? Well, it's just my opinion. It's not as if I said directly that I'll remove rights. I'm just questioning the decisions of the Black Community.

The above is sarcasm but I don't know. Let's see what happens when it gets said on TV. Ha. Ha. Ha.

But why the equivocation? Surely you must see the difference between Stop and Frisk (which absolutely is a removal of rights) and saying that maybe the progressive movement is doing more harm by insisting that everyone who doesn't recognize a pangender asexual heteromorphic person by sight or---even worse---doesn't recognize that as an actual thing, is a bigoted, transphobic asshole.

Questioning people's decisions and actions is not the same as saying they shouldn't be allowed to say or do those things.