(July 20, 2011 at 7:37 pm)C Rod Wrote: If you do not seek forgiveness or accept it when it is given, should you be forgiven when it is ultimately your choice?

Forgiven? For what? I've done fuck all. What's there to forgive? Seriously?!

Hell is for other people. /rationale.

(July 20, 2011 at 9:17 pm)C Rod Wrote: I guess myself. You must know that anyway, you must gain something from this that is truly valuable. I have nothing wrong with debating but it just seems to waste time, all we have is belief and well informed speculation but no incontrovertible truth that can be acquired.

If you truly are trying to convince yourself then that means there is a hint of doubt. Debating will do you good and hearing both sides of the argument will help you solidify your beliefs. Since no incontrovertible truth can be acquired, one must go on what is the most likely and rational scenario.

(July 21, 2011 at 4:44 am)CharlieMilles Wrote: Hell is for other people. /rationale.

Actually, hell is for children.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn4uqoHB75o

(July 20, 2011 at 11:09 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Sheol being just as ridiculous, of course.

Of course. However, it all sends the same message. That life is far better and yet it's beset with trials and travails one must overcome in order to insure what happens, good or bad, when they're dead. You know, because after the bodies somatic centers and consciousness stop working in the flesh, they travel with the fictional soul beyond this life so as to feel again and thus enjoy the bounty of Heaven, the ravages of Hell or the boredom of Sheol.

Gotta love religious traditions that condemn one's life for being human, impart terror when dead while claiming it's all due to a god that loves us.
It's like someone taking a hatchet and cutting off their hand at the wrist and then claiming now they'll be able to better serve their community, because some people can make great tasting soup out of hands.

God bless and pass the paprika.

(September 15, 2010 at 9:23 am)Ace Otana Wrote: I have asked in other threads about the reasoning of sending people to hell for all eternity for a finite victemless crime. Didn't quite get an answer. (snip)

That's part of my argument against God being "just".

Leave off the "victimless" part for now - since some sins for which you can be sent to Hell of you die unrepentant of them actually have victims.

Regardless of anything that anyone can do in life, even if it causes untold damage and suffering to real victims, there is only a finite amount of evil you can create in a finite time, in a finite space, shared with finite numbers of other individuals. Hell is eternal and infinite suffering. Any finite quantity is always less than an infinite quantity - you can always +1 to any finite quantity and still not reach infinity.

So, if one gets infinite punishment, that exceeds any finite crime or sin. Thus, Hell is always unjust, as the punishment exceeds the crime. If we as ordinary humans can understand this, and human judges, juries, and lawmakers can understand this, certainly an infinitely wise and knowing God would know it. Hence, He is unjust or Hell does not exist.

When I was a theist, although along the way in my own deconversion process, I went back to worshiping God as I believed in God. When I first started praying to this divine being, I was groveling and asking for forgiveness for "abandoning" God and "hurting" God. I worked myself up into tears for crying for the hurt I'd caused God. In retrospect this is laughable, but at the time it seemed to me to be a very real, moving experience that "proved" the existence of God - Who had "forgiven" me for abandoning Him! But, the notion that anything that a creation could do in respect to loving God or worshiping God is a "sin" or is deserving of any punishment at all - particularly in light of the lack of evidence that God exists, let alone "loves" us or intervenes on our behalf is grotesque. It would for one thing show a very insecure God who somehow likes playing a guessing game. In instances where people count up their "blessings" and weigh them against the undeserved ills that have happened in life, and find that the negatives in their life outweigh the positives, how can such a person be "grateful" for anything God has given them? A starving refugee, with their family murdered before their eyes by brigands or insurgents, diseased, watched their friends and others in their family die of disease, and this refugee has again lost their home because of a flood or earthquake would rationally have a hard time coming up with "gratitude". "God, thank you that the brigands stopped raping me after the 10th one. and "Thank you for letting my daughter suffer 5 days with cholera" and "Thank you for the quick death of my husband who was buried in volcanic ash." seems very disingenuous. Or, "I'm sorry for hating you because of watching my brother die of AIDS over a 6 year period." seems like something that an evil person would want - not a loving, all powerful, all knowing God.

I agree. Rather than omnibenevolence it smacks of omnisadism.
It's that what gives rise to the observations afforded by Maltheism. Which is more in keeping with the narrative of god characteristics in the Bible than what would be accorded with omnibenevolence.
Which, given the self-deprecation that goes hand in hand with worship of Bible god would then make his faithful masochists.

(July 21, 2011 at 5:32 pm)Judas BentHer Wrote: I agree. Rather than omnibenevolence it smacks of omnisadism.

Do you mean omnimalevolent?

(July 22, 2011 at 5:35 am)Welsh cake Wrote: Do you mean omnimalevolent?

Malevolence - the quality, state, or feeling of being malevolent; ill will; malice; hatred.


Sadism is the derivation of pleasure as a result of inflicting pain or watching pain inflicted on others.


Both, will do.


*edit link error*

I blame Dante for the development of this bullshit notion. It took art-not science-to make hell into a full tilt nastiness, and that fact underscores exactly why the notion is pure rubbish. Aside from extortion and coercion, hell has zero value philosophically. It is a political expedient now.

BTW, Judas, sadism is not always a bad thing, if you can find a cute masochist.