(June 16, 2017 at 5:49 pm)Hammok Man Wrote: - He is not a professional politician

No, he isn't. Nor does he have any experience relevant to running a government

(June 16, 2017 at 5:49 pm)Hammok Man Wrote: - He has real life business experience

And many, many bankruptcies to show for it.

(June 16, 2017 at 5:49 pm)Hammok Man Wrote: - USA first, Pro USA attitude over all, Military, rework foreign trade deals and other policies to better help business in the USA.

Trump putting America first is a misnomer. He's attempting to make American businesses more powerful, but at the expense of anyone it hurts along the way. More spending on the Military? We're already spending more then the other nine in the top ten spenders combined and more that some countries have to spend. Tearing up trade deals is not the best way to help US businesses long term, but like every other Repugnican politician, Trump can see past the next quarterly dividends check.

(June 16, 2017 at 5:49 pm)Hammok Man Wrote: - His stance on immigration is also popular among conservatives, deport illegals, keep people from terrorist hot spots out.

His stance on immigration is idiotic. Most illegal aliens resident here did not run, jump or swim to get here. They simply stayed on after their visas expired. No wall or immigration policy will do a damned thing about that. As for deporting illegals, they came here to make a better life. Tossing them across the border won't keep them out if they're set on coming back. Give them a path to citizenship and you make our country stonger and their lives better.

Keeping terrorists out? I'm far more concerned with the local crazies than I am with imported ones. Besides, how hard is it for people already working outside the law to simply fake their papers and come in from an allied country.

(June 16, 2017 at 5:49 pm)Hammok Man Wrote: - Pro Tax cut

Hell yeah! For all his rich asshole buddies. Trickle down economics didn't work for Ronnie, didn't work for Papa Bush, didn't work for Junior and won't work for the Trumpster. It's a flawed idea foisted upon us by greedy bastards that are bought my Wall Street interests.

(June 16, 2017 at 10:10 pm)The Gentleman Bastard Wrote:

(June 16, 2017 at 5:49 pm)Hammok Man Wrote: - Pro Tax cut

Hell yeah! For all his rich asshole buddies. Trickle down economics didn't work for Ronnie, didn't work for Papa Bush, didn't work for Junior and won't work for the Trumpster. It's a flawed idea foisted upon us by greedy bastards that are bought my Wall Street interests.

You have it right, TGB. But it could be argued that trickle down economics worked just fine for them in as much as it concentrated the wealth at the top without any loss through trickling anywhere. Of course, just how far the general population would permit this to go before saving itself through violence is hard to say. So probably not a sustainable model even for these parasites.

Your ranking seems to express an authoritarian bent with care/harm and liberty/oppression being the bottom of the pile. Personally, I wonder what use or sense the other four are in the absence of those, or when those two take a back seat. From an american perspective...that's the life, liberty, and happiness part.....and it;s difficult to fathom any political pov from this particular bit of rock that values loyalty over that..?

(June 16, 2017 at 6:14 pm)chimp3 Wrote: The title of your thread suggests there is something conservative about your atheism. Do you mean you are simply a politically conservative atheist or is your lack of belief in any deity different than a liberals lack of belief in any deity?

a politically conservative atheist

---

Tizheruk

Quote:

Quote:He is not a professional politician  

That's like saying the person operating on you is not a doctor is a plus

If every doctor I knew was incompetent and unable to produce results for the job they have been hired, and they had a reputation as being untruthful or as an outright liar.  Then I may let someone else take a look at a broken leg.

Quote:

Quote:He has real life business experience

Which is like saying ones skills as operator at a McDonalds drive through. Is a skill that allows you to run a nuclear power station.

Lets please be intellectually honest.  Your comparison does not even remotely mirror reality. 

Quote:

Quote: USA first, Pro USA attitude over all, Military, rework foreign trade deals and other policies to better help business in the USA.

By undermining America's reputation worldwide . Pissing off your allies . And running reckless policies that increase global instability and undermines the free world. While pushing a domestic agenda that turns members of your own government and populous against you.

People said the exact same thing about Obama.  When the evidence is examined from both conservative and liberal perspectives both hold true. 

Quote:

Quote:His stance on immigration is also popular among conservatives, deport illegals, keep people from terrorist hot spots out.

Splitting up families . Punishing hard working people fleeing conditions America helped create through a bigoted and ultimately futile policy . That even he doesn't seem to fully understand . By a fluke of geography .

Immigration laws were ignored for years, sending a message that the US boarder was wide open, what is more if you managed to have a child while here then they are a US citizen and the parents have an even stronger foothold.

When Trump was elected and announced that we would be turning illegals away at the boarder and actively deporting any illegal who commits a crime.  The illegal traffic across the boarder substantially subsided. (granted they ramped way the hell up in the months after election but before inauguration)

These laws are on the books and should either be inforced or changed.  I realize that a majority of illegal immigrants who come over the Mexican boarder are trying to find a better life but they are at the end of the day breaking the law.  Being deported is just as much a part of the risk as all the other dangers faced coming here illegally.
If these immigration law would have been enforced then less illegals would be here now.

SJWs prevailing upon their elected representatives in congress for a redress of their grievances is a pretty radical proposal.

Can't their position simply be adopted by acclamation or executive fiat or ex deus mechina of some kind lest they continue the hissy fit ?

(June 17, 2017 at 10:23 am)Hammok Man Wrote: Immigration laws were ignored for years, sending a message that the US boarder was wide open, what is more if you managed to have a child while here then they are a US citizen and the parents have an even stronger foothold.

No, they weren't.  Obama was the Deporter in Cheif.  He deported millions by immigration order, more than any other president, and that number doesn't factor in self deportation or people who were turned away...an even greater number.  Who, or what, told you otherwise?

Quote:When Trump was elected and announced that we would be turning illegals away at the boarder and actively deporting any illegal who commits a crime.  The illegal traffic across the boarder substantially subsided. (granted they ramped way the hell up in the months after election but before inauguration)

No, it didn't.  Who or what told you this?  

Quote:These laws are on the books and should either be inforced or changed.  I realize that a majority of illegal immigrants who come over the Mexican boarder are trying to find a better life but they are at the end of the day breaking the law.  Being deported is just as much a part of the risk as all the other dangers faced coming here illegally.
If these immigration law would have been enforced then less illegals would be here now.

Oh, you mean "immigration reform"?  We were changing them...................illegals are here, and there will always be some for whom any risk is miniscule compared to the perceived reward. All we decide in immigration law or reform is what sort of country we want to be in the face of that reality, which is beyond our control. I can;t even fathom the impetus for getting rid of them, we need them...they enrich our lives and coffers - our entire economic system depends upon them at the lowest and most fundamental levels, lol? What, do you think, the immigrants have done to you?

(June 16, 2017 at 9:22 pm)Whateverist Wrote: I'll ignore your stance toward Trump for now.

(June 16, 2017 at 5:49 pm)Hammok Man Wrote: I posted a comment in another thread and Whateverist asked me a few questions:

1) Care/harm: This foundation is related to our long evolution as mammals with attachment systems and an ability to feel (and dislike) the pain of others. It underlies virtues of kindness, gentleness, and nurturance.

Is this referring to empathy?  I try to treat people how I would like to be treated.

This one puzzles me. Most conservatives seem to be against abortion and against leaving the choice to the woman who is carrying the fetus. But most conservatives seem to oppose free or reduced school lunches for the poor. Is there a reason why the unborn seem more deserving of care to conservatives than those already born?

(June 16, 2017 at 5:49 pm)Hammok Man Wrote:  
2) Fairness/cheating: This foundation is related to the evolutionary process of reciprocal altruism. It generates ideas of justice, rights, and autonomy.
[Note: In our original conception, Fairness included concerns about equality, which are more strongly endorsed by political liberals. However, as we reformulated the theory in 2011 based on new data, we emphasize proportionality, which is endorsed by everyone, but is more strongly endorsed by conservatives]

I think this means that laws should be applied equally to all people regardless of our differences.  If that is the core meaning of #2 then I believe in that statement. 

Proportionality needs some unpacking. Do you find no application for equality where proportionality doesn't do as well? For example, shouldn't the consequences handed out by the justice system apply absolutely equally to all regardless of wealth, education, race, age and so on? Surely there is no sense in which the amount of leniency one receives should be proportional to ones level of education, right?

(June 16, 2017 at 5:49 pm)Hammok Man Wrote: 3) Loyalty/betrayal: This foundation is related to our long history as tribal creatures able to form shifting coalitions. It underlies virtues of patriotism and self-sacrifice for the group. It is active anytime people feel that it's "one for all, and all for one."

I think loyalty is a crucial part of ones character, you can always tell who your true friends are when things go to hell.

But at what level is loyalty best applied? Why is the nation state privileged over others? I feel it much more strongly toward family, especially my mate. I also feel it in relationship to work and the people I work with. But neighborhood, city, state, hemisphere .. why nation? Why not work toward developing fellow feeling toward people everywhere? My idea of national patriotism is pride when my country comports itself as a good citizen in the world of nation states.

(June 16, 2017 at 5:49 pm)Hammok Man Wrote:
4) Authority/subversion: This foundation was shaped by our long primate history of hierarchical social interactions. It underlies virtues of leadership and followership, including deference to legitimate authority and respect for traditions.

I am comfortable as a follower when the person leading is competent.  I have moved my self into leadership positions when I feel i am the best person for a job.  Rule by committee can be done but does not lend itself to quick decision making.   

This is probably the foundation which I hold in the lowest esteem. I would never have survived in the military.

(June 16, 2017 at 5:49 pm)Hammok Man Wrote: 5) Sanctity/degradation: This foundation was shaped by the psychology of disgust and contamination. It underlies religious notions of striving to live in an elevated, less carnal, more noble way. It underlies the widespread idea that the body is a temple which can be desecrated by immoral activities and contaminants (an idea not unique to religious traditions).  
We think there are several other very good candidates for "foundationhood," especially:

I typically follow the rules and guidelines of society, and like society my values have changed over the years.  Some things i do not adhere to , but they do not harm anyone.

I think we are simpatico here. I am happy enough to endorse and support group norms and to enforce them through a system of society chosen laws. So I too am a rule follower by and large. But I would describe my approach to the vehicle code as: 1) no one gets hurt; 2) I don't attract any citations; 3) I do whatever pleases me so long as I don't violate 1 or 2.

(June 16, 2017 at 5:49 pm)Hammok Man Wrote: 6) Liberty/oppression: This foundation is about the feelings of reactance and resentment people feel toward those who dominate them and restrict their liberty. Its intuitions are often in tension with those of the authority foundation. The hatred of bullies and dominators motivates people to come together, in solidarity, to oppose or take down the oppressor. We report some preliminary work on this potential foundation in [url=http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0042366][/url], on the psychology of libertarianism and liberty.

Part of this ties into #4 I have no problem being led by a competent leader.  If rules are fairly enforced than I'll tolerate short term incompetence.  I have been in situations where I have removed myself from the equation because of bad leadership with no way to rectify.  I have also helped similar situations by aiding in the removal of incompetent leaders, or obstructions.

I have no objection to being led by politicians who have been legally elected. Sadly it isn't up to me to determine if the leader is competent. Really, what does my finding them competent even mean apart from agreeing with the candidate's approach?

Nonetheless it is perfectly rational and important to oppose policy one finds reprehensible. I do it too.

I'm not sure how I'd rank them but I'm being called to dinner so later for that.

Quote:If every doctor I knew was incompetent and unable to produce results for the job they have been hired, and they had a reputation as being untruthful or as an outright liar. Then I may let someone else take a look at a broken leg.

To bad that ironically does not reflect reality. And in fact all you done is replace a corrupt lying  doctor with a corrupt  lying faith healer.

Quote:Lets please be intellectually honest. Your comparison does not even remotely mirror reality.

Yes it does being good at business doesn't mean shit . And your in no position to lecture me on reality with all BS your spewing . Fact is Trump does not know shit about running a country and he constantly demonstrates it.

Quote:People said the exact same thing about Obama. When the evidence is examined from both conservative and liberal perspectives both hold true

Nope Obama for the most part did okay job on the foreign policy file .Trump in 3 months has made America a pariah and a laughingstock . Your clearly looking at this from an apologists perspective.

Quote:As for immigration

Your first statement is bullshit
Your second statement is bullshit
And my point remains unchallenged

So overall your reasons for liking Trump are weak as hell .And your clearly living in a bigger fantasy world. Then the most deranged of bible thumpers.

heres the opinion of trump by a famous business man who knows him.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/rich...spartanntp

(June 16, 2017 at 5:49 pm)Hammok Man Wrote: - He is not a professional politician

Sorry, but this is not a positive attribute. There is a certain set of skills everyone needs to do their jobs, and if one choses politician as their job, the need political skills.

Name one other profession that you would not want the person practicing said profession, to have a high level of skills in that profession.
     

Quote:- He has real life business experience

Well, if governing a country was anything like running a business, you might have a point.

And I don't even need to go into Trumps lousy business practices, his multiple bankruptcies, his over 3000 lawsuits against him, etc.

Quote:- USA first, Pro USA attitude over all, Military, rework foreign trade deals and other policies to better help business in the USA.

Except when it comes to having all Trump clothing lines made in China, right?

Quote:- His stance on immigration is also popular among conservatives, deport illegals, keep people from terrorist hot spots out.

Good thing the US didn't have such policies in place when those conservatives grandparents came to the US.

Quote:- Pro Tax cut

The countries with among the highest tax rates, have the happiest, most productive populations.

Denmark, by every measurement, has the happiest people in the world. They have a 60.2% tax rate, and hardly anyone complains.

Other Northern european countries are similar.

The US had it's most productive period, and highest level of upward mobility, when our tax rate was quite a bit higher than it is now.