(July 23, 2011 at 10:42 pm)Minimalist Wrote: In the Pacific, they have completely ignored the the contributions of the British, New Zealanders, Australians....and most of all the Chinese.

...not to mention the Dutch whose colonial navy was wiped out in The Battle of the Java Sea...

---

(July 22, 2011 at 2:31 am)Kayenneh Wrote: yes, if people could let go of the shackles of their fantasies and actually live in the real world, it would be awesome, but it's not gonna happen. Delusion will always be more real to some, it would seem.

So why put all this effort into religion bashing when we know a) it's not gonna happen, and b) would we really like the alternative, the consequences – total chaos – any better?

I say sit back, observe, and chuckle.
Urbi et Orbi makes for colorful non-intrusive background TV, way more relaxing than Billy Mays or used car dealership commercials, when I'm decapitating my steamingly hot 4 minute eggs (2 minimum) during a leisurely Easter brunch under the shady, vine-covered pergola out on a sun-blazed deck beside the pool after an exciting, sinful night... That is the life!
And save yourself the trouble to get all heated under the collar...

Arch was a nice diversion. He ate it up for years!

They don't make 'm like that anymore.

(July 24, 2011 at 5:01 am)Rokcet Scientist Wrote: So why put all this effort into religion bashing when we know a) it's not gonna happen, and b) would we really like the alternative, the consequences – total chaos – any better?

On what basis do you say that the alternative would be chaos?

There are many reasons for putting effort into opposing religion; two of the most compelling are the indoctrination of children and the privileges afforded to religious groups that are not accessible to atheists and/or members of other religions, depending on where you are.

In my opinion, yes I would love a world without religion. I think Hitchens often says something like 'Getting rid of religion wouldn't be sufficient to solve the world's problems, but it would be necessary'. And to be honest, I think in the western world at least, you'll see religion's power diminish over the next couple of generations. And I think it's fair to say it would work like a see-saw (teeter-totter), where there'd be a tipping point and things would speed up greatly. Atheists and agnostics are supposedly the fastest growing demographic in the USA, and I can't see any reason why that will change as greater evidence becomes available and access to it is easier. The internet is absolutely essential in this.

Once you take away the power of majority, churches will no longer be as powerful a lobby group. Don't forget that most politicians don't really give a shit what people believe, they want votes and will go wherever the votes are. So I think it's conceivable that maybe 50-60 years from now, religion's influence in the western world will be comparatively negligible. Maybe sooner, who knows. In less literate parts of the world, this process will be much slower, sadly.

Quote:...not to mention the Dutch whose colonial navy was wiped out in The Battle of the Java Sea...

That'll teach you to fuck with the Japs!

(July 25, 2011 at 8:52 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:...not to mention the Dutch whose colonial navy was wiped out in The Battle of the Java Sea...

That'll teach you to fuck with the Japs!

You think the Chinese will be any more accomodating...?

---

(July 25, 2011 at 8:00 pm)ElDinero Wrote: On what basis do you say that the alternative would be chaos?

On the basis of history, science, philosophy, a healthy dose of scepsis and irreverence, and keeping an open mind...
I recommend it.

Uhhh that didn't answer my question at all, did it.

I'm asking why getting rid of religion would mean that there would be chaos. I'm not saying there wouldn't be, I'm asking on what basis you suggest that would be the case. For instance, do you think more secular/irreligious countries in the world today are generally chaotic? You mentioned history, so is there historical evidence that suggests countries with no religion have been chaotic? What scientific basis?

I'm just asking for some qualification of that statement, might open up some discussion.

I have to agree with R/S, here. There are a lot of stupid people running around who prefer simple, wrong, answers to any question. Religion supplies those simple, wrong answers. Rip that away from them and who knows what would ensue.

As the saying goes: Beware of stupid people in large numbers.

(July 26, 2011 at 3:04 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Rip that away from them and who knows what would ensue.

RocketScience does, apparently. I really don't see why you guys think it would be any more chaotic if people didn't have religion, compared to now. 1000 types of Christianity seems fairly chaotic to me. Besides which, I'm not talking about forcibly removing it from stupid people right this second (how could you even do that?). I'm talking about a societal consciousness-raising which would be a gradual, natural process. Do you still think at the end of this process, there would be chaos?

In Europe the churches are empty but people have evolved into it.

To suddenly eliminate the fairy tales that stupid people use to get through the day is dangerous. Remember, xtians ARE assholes just like muslims.

But it wouldn't be sudden. It would be over the course of decades, and it would be coupled with a society with its consciousness raised. It's happening right now in the USA and elsewhere.

Stupid people would still be born, but if they were born into a generally more intelligent society that saw, say, Christianity in the same way society today views Greek mythology, they wouldn't be sucked into it. Basically if it wasn't being pounded into their heads from every angle.

To say it would be chaos is just pure conjecture.

(July 26, 2011 at 4:45 pm)ElDinero Wrote: it wouldn't be sudden. It would be over the course of decades, and it would be coupled with a society with its consciousness raised. It's happening right now in the USA

Excuse me? Have you been out of the country in the past decade? Or in a holding tank? Quite the contrary is the case. The founding fathers did their best to keep church and state separated. Bachmann and the other Mor(m)ons clearly try to corrupt that picture (the Religious Right has been working on that, and made considerable progress, since the fifties: the corruption of the pledge!). And guess who's winning right now?

The way things are going the very real spectre looms that you'll have a bonafide inquisition/witch hunt (Salem/McCarthy style) in the United States and a couple crusades (Vietnam/Iraq style) elsewhere on your hands by this time next year. For the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ!

Enjoy!